What is your answer to "The Race Problem"?

Traditio

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Why is it so many more guilty are incarcerated of one race vs. another? If the punishment were equal maybe, but it isn't.

Again, are they guilty? Do they deserve to be incarcerated?

Why focus on whether or not the sentences are equal?

Let's focus on whether or not each individual convict is guilty and deserves the sentence that he got.

Are they? Do they?

If the answer to each question is "yes," then there's no room for complaint.
 

gcthomas

New member
Who is less moral? The helpless dependent poor, or the wealthy and powerful who could help but walk on by and do nothing?
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
A lack of morality within the black community.
Wow.






I posted this elsewhere, but it fits well here:
Just World Phenomenon: The tendency of people to believe that the world is just and that people therefore get what they deserve and deserve what they get.

____________________________________

... people are indifferent to social injustice not because they have no concern for justice but because they see no injustice. Those who assume a just world believe that rape victims must have behaved seductively, that battered spouses must have provoked their beatings, that poor people don't deserve better...

Such beliefs enable successful people to reassure themselves that they, too, deserve what they have. The wealthy and healthy can see their own good fortune, and others' misfortune, as justly deserved. Linking good fortune with virtue and misfortune with moral failure enables the fortunate to feel pride and to avoid responsibility for the unfortunate.

David G. Myers
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
The Moral Elephant in Black America’s Room

One has to wonder how Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. would respond to the state of black America in 2013. From the nonsense that regularly spews from the mouth of rappers like Lil Wayne to the black-on-black violence that continues to plague many black urban and rural neighborhoods, we are moving further away from King’s dream. Did MLK die so that rappers like Lil Wayne could saturate their music with misogyny and materialism? Did MLK die so that young black males could sabotage their lives and the lives of others in their neighborhoods? Moreover, what continues to baffle many of us is the curious absence of a discussion about the promotion of moral values in low-income communities as a way to undermine the mass incarceration epidemic in the black community because of the government’s failed drug policies.

Maria Lloyd, Business Manager for Your Black World Network, recently wrote a column outlining a few of the social consequences of the mass incarceration of African American men resulting from failed federal drug policy including the proliferation of HIV/AIDS, unemployment, and mass incarceration. In fact, a December 2012 recent Justice Department report observes that “nearly half (48%) of inmates in federal prison were serving time for drug offenses in 2011, while slightly more than a third (35%) were incarcerated for public-order crimes.” Lloyd continues,

Among African-Americans who have grown up during the era of mass incarceration, one in four has had a parent locked up at some point during childhood. For black men in their 20s and early 30s without a high school diploma, the incarceration rate is so high — nearly 40 percent nationwide — that they’re more likely to be behind bars than to have a job.

The war on drugs, like the war on poverty, has been lost and many argue that both “wars” need to be called off. The resultant mass incarceration of black males has had a significant impact on cycles of poverty, family breakdown in the black community, and the removal of able bodied men from the labor market. While these issues are true, what also needs to be addressed is state of moral virtue in black America. We have to wonder what would happen if moral virtue hailed supreme in low-income black neighborhoods that were vulnerable to failed drug war policies. Given the known consequences of federal drug policy, what would happen if people chose not to put themselves in positions to get busted on a drug charge? What if black leaders decided to undermine the prison industrial complex by providing a vision for a virtuous black America where incarceration rates plummeted not because laws changed in the short-term, although that needs to happen, but because men and women in black communities across this country protested and resisted the government’s “war” by living more virtuously?

This is what the Bible means by living above reproach (1 Timothy 3:1-7). As legislators work to change federal drug policy, it seems that the best short-term strategy to deal with the mass incarceration of black men is the promotion and practice of a lifestyle where there would be no cause or occasion of criminal activity connected to drug use or distribution. No drugs, no arrests. No arrests, no mass incarceration. This proposal will sound fanciful to some but it only sounds unreasonable if you believe that black men are not capable of virtuous living. This is the moral elephant in the room. It might be time to subvert the inconsistency of federal drug policy by taking the high moral road that is often less traveled. While we call for needed changes in federal drug policy we also need to call black men and women to virtuous living.
 

Traditio

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Conserving space? Are you serious? If you can't summon the energy to quote me, I won't bother to answer your question.

Well, ok. If you insist. I don't really understand your insistence on it, but if it pleases you, I'll comply with your wishes:

Annabenedetti said:
Wow.

I posted this elsewhere, but it fits well here:

Just World Phenomenon: The tendency of people to believe that the world is just and that people therefore get what they deserve and deserve what they get.

____________________________________

... people are indifferent to social injustice not because they have no concern for justice but because they see no injustice. Those who assume a just world believe that rape victims must have behaved seductively, that battered spouses must have provoked their beatings, that poor people don't deserve better...

Such beliefs enable successful people to reassure themselves that they, too, deserve what they have. The wealthy and healthy can see their own good fortune, and others' misfortune, as justly deserved. Linking good fortune with virtue and misfortune with moral failure enables the fortunate to feel pride and to avoid responsibility for the unfortunate.

David G. Myers

It's this bit in particular to which I am responding:

Just World Phenomenon: The tendency of people to believe that the world is just and that people therefore get what they deserve and deserve what they get.

This leads me to think that you disagree that the convicted persons have been treated justly and that they deserve what they have gotten.

Ok. Do you think they're innocent?
 

rexlunae

New member
Of the black people that have been convicted, what percentage do you think are innocent and do not deserve their sentences?

The problem with asking if they're innocent is that it ignores biases in the way that the law is enforced. If black people are routinely prosecuted for the same offenses more frequently than white people, or charged with more serious crimes for the same actions, or given harsher sentences, that's a problem even in cases where they aren't fully innocent. A criminal offense can lead to follow-on consequences, including the inability to find legal work after prison, which feeds a recidivism cycle. And it leads to less stable families, as convicts are often absent from their homes and unable to provide for their families, which feeds the cycle into the next generation. We need a criminal justice system that focuses on rehabilitation and exit from the system rather than one that traps people once they find their way in.
 

Traditio

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The problem with asking if they're innocent is that it ignores biases in the way that the law is enforced. If black people are routinely prosecuted for the same offenses more frequently than white people, or charged with more serious crimes for the same actions, or given harsher sentences, that's a problem even in cases where they aren't fully innocent. A criminal offense can lead to follow-on consequences, including the inability to find legal work after prison, which feeds a recidivism cycle. And it leads to less stable families, as convicts are often absent from their homes and unable to provide for their families, which feeds the cycle into the next generation. We need a criminal justice system that focuses on rehabilitation and exit from the system rather than one that traps people once they find their way in.

So your answer is: "No, they're not innocent, but I don't really care."

Because, of course, you social liberals have absolutely no concept of personal responsibility.

:rolleyes:
 

rexlunae

New member
So your answer is: "No, they're not innocent, but I don't really care."

Because, of course, you social liberals have absolutely no concept of personal responsibility.

:rolleyes:

No, that's not my answer. I think you need to read more closely. My answer is that there's more to it than a binary question of guilt. There's a question of the fairness of how we treat guilty people.
 

Traditio

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No, that's not my answer. I think you need to read more closely. My answer is that there's more to it than a binary question of guilt. There's a question of the fairness of how we treat guilty people.

To my mind, none of what you posted is relevent.

The only relevent concerns, to my mind, are as follows:

1. Did he commit the crime?
2. Granted that he committed the crime, does his sentence fall within the sentencing guidelines for that crime?

If the answers to 1 and 2 are "yes," then no other concerns are relevent, and the criminal has been treated fairly. It's really that simple.

If you want me to agree that there's an unfair system, you have to start showing me all of the black people in prison who don't meet criteria 1 and 2.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Who is less moral? The helpless dependent poor, or the wealthy and powerful who could help but walk on by and do nothing?

Neither.

The blame lies with those who deny people groups opportunities by promising them handouts.
 

chair

Well-known member
Again, are they guilty? Do they deserve to be incarcerated?

Why focus on whether or not the sentences are equal?

Let's focus on whether or not each individual convict is guilty and deserves the sentence that he got.

Are they? Do they?

If the answer to each question is "yes," then there's no room for complaint.

It's not simply a question of "complaint" or "who is guilty". Even if the criminal justice system was perfect, that would still not be the important question.

The question is: Are you satisfied with the way American society is, or do you want to improve it?

What can be done so that the next generation of ghetto kids don't end up as criminals?
 

gcthomas

New member
Of the black people that have been convicted, what percentage do you think are innocent and do not deserve their sentences?

Probably a higher percentage than for white people, if jurors are as racist as the general population.

But to answer your question on a more roundabout way: there are two levels of cause to consider. The first, and the one that is prevalent amongst the "they bring it on themselves" crowd, is the proximate cause, the 'last thing' that had to happen for the crime to happen. A decision by the perpetrator that signifies legal guilt.

The second is the long list of things that had to happen to bring a person to that position where a crime was the easy solution to a problem: the ultimate causes. The morally dubious decisions of society (politicians, passers by, police and so on) , that allow whole groups to be left at the bottom of the social and opportunity pile.

So the criminals deserve just sentences, but what punishment for those others who bear some responsibility?
 
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