What is your answer to "The Race Problem"?

[rexlunae]

We "white people" never stole people or forced labor from them or did any country building. Many of us are ancestors of those people whom you refer to, but none of us did ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

But we are the beneficiaries of those crimes, and we continue to benefit by the continued disparity in treatment, even after formal slavery de jure ended. Our own capital building was built by slave labor.

We are not responsible for any of it.

Not for the original crime. We do have a responsibility to try to cancel its impact.

Neither did any of us allow segregation and deprivation.

Not in the Jim Crow sense, perhaps, but the odds are still stacked against people of color, especially black people. See the above conversation(s) for additional context.

Your sarcasm is meaningless as it is aimed at no one.

It's aimed at bybee, you, Trad, anyone who thinks white people have "moved on" from racism, or that that's even a reasonable notion about what needs to be done. If you were assaulted, or robbed, and you were told that the assailant had "moved on", would you think that was anything but risible?

Only a figment of your imagination. Click our tongues at black culture?

I'd say that either you aren't following along, or you're completely inured by it.

Yes, we point out how awful a culture it is. Why should we sugar coat it?

Which aspect, particularly, do you feel pressured to sugar coat?

It is responsible for their broken families and high incarceration rates. Why should we pretend it doesn't exist?

It's not something you have any control over. We allow white people broad discretion to chose their family composition without using it as an excuse to stereotype white people as a group. And mass incarceration and joblessness are both huge contributors to broken families, which is often ultimately in the hands of a white majority, white prosecutors, white jurors, and white employers.

Are we saying we are better people? No. We are simply pointing out the solution to the problem Alate and you are groveling in the dirt about.

You're not saying you're better. You just think they should be more like you. Simple, huh?

You don't want a solution to the problem evidently.

I want to stop scapegoating. Not the same thing. White people need to focus on what they can do, and let black people do their thing.

You have this white guilt that you live under that keeps you from rationally thinking about the problem.

Nonsense. A lot of white people are in denial about the advantages they have built into the system.

What families and careers are white people ruining? Most of the actions of white people have no direct bearing on any black person at all.

You could start here:
http://www.eji.org/raceandpoverty/juryselection

And this:
http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm

A lot of the later is likely a result of structural racism rather than intentional individual bias, although I would note the especially high unemployment rates for black youth compared to other youth. That's not real likely to be a result of a judgement of individual merit so much as assumptions about their potential based on what they look like. Also remember what unemployment measures: people who are looking for a job but who cannot find one. And there's no escaping the prejudice required for a prosecutor to look at his prospective jurors, who are selected at random for the voir dire, and decide to dismiss the black ones.

You are speaking of us as a collective. People don't act as a collective....

They do, they just don't realize it very easily. You need statistics to recognize the effect.

only in the mind of the socialist progressive as yourself. Who is stereotyping on this page? Nobody is saying as far as I can see that all black people act according to these stereotypes.

Colorblindness is a form of racism: the insistence against the evidence that people of different races are on a level playing field.

The behaviors that are described in those sterotypes are very real though and they happen everyday in much more than just rare instances. They happen enough that they must be mentioned when discussing the nature of the problem. But of course, you are not really interested in solving the race problem.

Denial never will solve the problem.

All you care about is forcing people to think exactly like you do or else shame them with your insults and sarcasm if they don't.

That's a spurious charge, intended to distract from the fact that you don't really have an answer to the challenge. Of course I'm trying to convince people to come around to my perspective on this, as is everyone else here. What do you think the point of having the discussion is?

 

[rexlunae]

My friend, there is always more to do.

I think that goes without saying, and that saying it doesn't really advance much.

That includes black people as well. They must grow past their own prejudices and ingrained beliefs about white people.

There are a couple of problems with that, but maybe the most important is that it's false balance. I can name a lot of things white people, as a group, have done to black people. It's hard to name a single one that goes the other way. Certainly, there are individual actions, but those don't really have the kind of systemic importance that we're talking about here.

And the other problem is that, as a white person, I can really only directly take action on the white side of the issue. I suspect the same may be true of you. I don't think there's much to be gained by stereotyping black people as a justification for how they are treated, and I think there's a lot of harm that comes of it.

 

[bybee]

I think that goes without saying, and that saying it doesn't really advance much.



There are a couple of problems with that, but maybe the most important is that it's false balance. I can name a lot of things white people, as a group, have done to black people. It's hard to name a single one that goes the other way. Certainly, there are individual actions, but those don't really have the kind of systemic importance that we're talking about here.

And the other problem is that, as a white person, I can really only directly take action on the white side of the issue. I suspect the same may be true of you. I don't think there's much to be gained by stereotyping black people as a justification for how they are treated, and I think there's a lot of harm that comes of it.

And what do you think defining blacks as "victims" does for them? And what do you think advocating hand outs for able bodied persons does to them? And what do you think special treatment does for them?

 

[ClimateSanity]

Permission to nitpick?

LMAO

 

[rexlunae]

And what do you think defining blacks as "victims" does for them?

They're not victims. They're survivors.

:idunno:

And what do you think advocating hand outs for able bodied persons does to them?

What hand-out?

You mean like Trad was talking about, when he was saying that it's fair for white defendants to get lighter sentences than black people for the same crimes, as long as the sentences fit within the requirements of the law?

Slavery reparations? I haven't explicitly called for them, but maybe that.

And what do you think special treatment does for them?

I'm calling for equal treatment. Can we get to that? Because we're a long way from it.

 

[bybee]

They're not victims. They're survivors.

:idunno:



What hand-out?

You mean like Trad was talking about, when he was saying that it's fair for white defendants to get lighter sentences than black people for the same crimes, as long as the sentences fit within the requirements of the law?

Slavery reparations? I haven't explicitly called for them, but maybe that.



I'm calling for equal treatment. Can we get to that? Because we're a long way from it.

You deliberately misread what I say so as to make me out to be a stupid racist.
This is far from the truth of who I am.

 

[Angel4Truth]

You deliberately misread what I say so as to make me out to be a stupid racist.
This is far from the truth of who I am.

He didn't misread you. Its intentional.

 

[rexlunae]

You deliberately misread what I say so as to make me out to be a stupid racist.

No, I don't think I did. I didn't make you out to be a "stupid racist", for one thing.

 

[ok doser]

But we are the beneficiaries of those crimes ....

as are the descendants of those who were enslaved:

descendants of those who were brought to america as slaves hundreds of years ago:

Spoiler

descendants of those who were not brought to america as slaves hundreds of years ago:

Spoiler

 

[Alate_One]

as are the descendants of those who were enslaved:

descendants of those who were brought to america as slaves hundreds of years ago

Cherrypicking much?

Works both ways.

Countries that were the main source of slaves are actually near the top of GDP per capita in Africa.

Also note that Caribbean countries that are majority black, from the same locations as the USA have a reasonably good standard of living.

 

[ok doser]

Cherrypicking much?

Works both ways.

they sure look well fed and well dressed :idunno:

Countries that were the main source of slaves are actually near the top of GDP per capita in Africa.

so it was a good thing! :thumb:

Also note that Caribbean countries that are majority black, from the same locations as the USA have a reasonably good standard of living.

so you're making the case that slavery was beneficial?

:thumb:

 

[Alate_One]

they sure look well fed and well dressed :idunno:

So do most people in Africa, but your picture was not from the countries where people originated anyway. Most slaves originated from west and central Africa where famine is relatively uncommon.

so it was a good thing! :thumb:

Lower population levels means more resources for those left behind. Surviving people flourished after the black death came through, Europe but that doesn't make the black death a "good thing".

so you're making the case that slavery was beneficial?

:thumb:

I'm showing you that slaves on their own made better economies for themselves than people trapped in inner city ghettoes.

 

[ok doser]

...I'm showing you that slaves on their own made better economies for themselves

Haiti?

... than people trapped in inner city ghettoes.

didn't realize that people were trapped in inner city ghettos :idunno:

 

[GuySmiley]

I'm showing you that slaves on their own made better economies for themselves than people trapped in inner city ghettoes.

You called this behavior cherry picking and showed that you could do it too. Now you are running with it?

 

[HisServant]

There can be no solution until all ethnicities agree on what is acceptable behavior and lifestyles.

Right now, the poorer ethnicities are determined to dumb down the country to make their lack of effort (in spite of 50 years of the majority trying to give them every possible opportunity to better themselves) to make themselves feel better.

As far as the great grand children of former slaves.... they should not be grateful that their forebears were slaves, but they should look on the positive side of things... if it wasn't for slavery, they would not exist. In the past, African's wiped out entire villages or enslaved them, where the slave trade provided an out for their ancestors. In this country, they have much more opportunity to succeed and even the opportunity to go back to Africa if they want.... no one is keeping them here... they are free.

What bothers me lately, is that a large part of the 'tragedies and inequities' that the blacks are currently complaining about are either fabricated or self inflicted.

Like this PHD lady that published an article about being hasstled for 'walking while black'... which was shown to be a total fabrication.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/l...thy-bland-i-was-caughtwalking-while-black.ece

or this guy who was found to have started the fires at at least 2 to of the black churches around Ferguson hoping it would be blamed on the whites.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/st-louis-man-charged-local-church-fires-article-1.2418335

The same goes for all the democrats crashing Republican rallies holding up racist and/or sexist signs and getting the republicans blamed for it.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...ton-pro-zimmerman-rally-is-far-left-activist/


The media and democrats are conspiring and whipping the masses into a frenzy to get the leftists elected.

We need to be smarter than that.

 

[rexlunae]

as are the descendants of those who were enslaved:

descendants of those who were brought to america as slaves hundreds of years ago:

Spoiler

descendants of those who were not brought to america as slaves hundreds of years ago:

Spoiler

So...that makes up for it all? And justifies continuing disparities? Is that the point?

 

[ok doser]

So...that makes up for it all?

meh :idunno: it is what it is

my ancestors received often brutal treatment from other races - big whoop


about time for the whiny blacks to build a bridge and get over it

they can start by turning off that rap-crap, turning their backs on drugs, gangs and violence, and getting an education and making something of themselves

the non-whiny blacks already have

And justifies continuing disparities?

disparities suggests statistics

find me a tangible, specific case of blatantly racist behavior and i'll comment on it

Is that the point?

if they want to go live in africa and starve to death, nobody's stopping them

 

[kmoney]

I think maybe the most important thing is awareness and bias training. There's good research showing that as a culture, the black people are perceived as more threatening and less sympathetic by default, that their expressions of pain are often interpreted as a threat, and that includes when the perceiver is black themselves. So, I think that awareness of that bias is important. And of course, accountability, in the form of body camera, dash cameras, that sort of thing, and less presumption that the police are acting reasonably. And there are some laws that need to change. It's too easy for people, especially cops, but others as well to claim self-defense in many states.

I'm mostly ok with that. What do you mean by self-defense being too easy to claim?

 

[Angel4Truth]

meh :idunno: it is what it is

my ancestors received often brutal treatment from other races - big whoop


about time for the whiny blacks to build a bridge and get over it

they can start by turning off that rap-crap, turning their backs on drugs, gangs and violence, and getting an education and making something of themselves

the non-whiny blacks already have

Bunch of uncle toms...

 

[ok doser]

more pearls from purex:

... in the U.S., we have created a kind of perfect storm of bigotry that forces black men ... to become "criminals". To be poor is actually a crime in many places in this country ...

:darwinsm: