What is your answer to "The Race Problem"?

[bybee]

Well, you got one anyway. Perhaps you can use it to figure out what I was actually saying.



That wasn't my claim, so...:idunno:



Maybe not. There can be racism without racists. But I don't think that's really going on here. I think that white people looked at black people who had high rates of heroine addiction, and they saw a problem with black people. But when the problem starts to impact white people, they saw a problem with drugs. Whether they admit it or not, and whether it was intentional or not, that is racism with racists.

So you get to say what white people call a problem but white people don't get to say what they see as a problem? Very interesting....

 

[Yorzhik]

The question wasn't relevant.

It was your claim. The question was asking you to support your claim.

It completely missed the point. It's not about the priorities, it's about who's making the decisions.

Who's making the decisions? Name them. Should I be punished for their decisions?

It doesn't matter if there's a single difference in what your average white person would do versus your average black person. The fact that a significant ratio of the people who enjoy "black" media are white makes it a bit hypocritical when white people criticize black culture as a means of justifying racial disparities. It's not black people who maintain the perceptions of black people as tougher, less sympathetic, or more violent. It's our entire culture, the majority of which is still white.

"justifying racial disparities"? What does that mean? Do you mean "justifying racism?" Or do you mean "there are differences, therefore there must be reasons for the differences?"

I guess we first have to establish if there are differences in people groups, without regard to the cause if there are differences to begin with.

 

[rexlunae]

It was your claim.

...which you misunderstood.

Who's making the decisions?

American society as a whole.

Name them.

List every American. Most of them are still white, in case you were wondering.

Should I be punished for their decisions?

Who said anything about punishment? I'm suggesting something that white people should think about before they reach conclusions about black culture and the things that it seems to promote.

"justifying racial disparities"? What does that mean? Do you mean "justifying racism?" Or do you mean "there are differences, therefore there must be reasons for the differences?"

"Justifying racial disparities" means coming up with justifications for disparate treatment, e.g. how black people are given harsher sentences for the same crime compared to other races. If you've been following along, you shouldn't have to ask what I mean, since I was referring to a very specific phenomenon.

 

[rexlunae]

So you get to say what white people call a problem

I think I'm entitled to draw some conclusions about it, yes. But then, I was also told earlier in this thread by several white people how they themselves view black culture, and a large portion of my comments have been responding to those statements. So...what's the problem?

... but white people don't get to say what they see as a problem? Very interesting....

No, no. Please do. Lets have it out. But you don't get to complain about something, and then not see a response to your complaint. Do you think it's unfair to note that white people seem to evaluate responsibility differently for things that they perceive as problems impacting "others" versus themselves?

 

[The Berean]

The question wasn't relevant. It completely missed the point. It's not about the priorities, it's about who's making the decisions. It doesn't matter if there's a single difference in what your average white person would do versus your average black person. The fact that a significant ratio of the people who enjoy "black" media are white makes it a bit hypocritical when white people criticize black culture as a means of justifying racial disparities. It's not black people who maintain the perceptions of black people as tougher, less sympathetic, or more violent. It's our entire culture, the majority of which is still white.

Wait, what? How many white people are in these music videos? This videos were largely produced black people.

.

.

.

.

 

[rexlunae]

Wait, what? How many white people are in these music videos? This videos were largely produced black people.

But who are the consumers of that media? It's certainly a lot of black people, but it's also a lot of white people too. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[bybee]

I think I'm entitled to draw some conclusions about it, yes. But then, I was also told earlier in this thread by several white people how they themselves view black culture, and a large portion of my comments have been responding to those statements. So...what's the problem?



No, no. Please do. Lets have it out. But you don't get to complain about something, and then not see a response to your complaint. Do you think it's unfair to note that white people seem to evaluate responsibility differently for things that they perceive as problems impacting "others" versus themselves?

I think it an unfair note. The only problem I might impact is mine. If you ask me to help you with your problem I might.
I believe most white people have moved on and are not racist, at least not in a way that causes deliberate harm to people of other races. It appears (to me) from listening to black music, watching black TV shows and listening to black discussions and commentaries that we are culturally very different. And yet, People who are educated, brought up in two parent families, trying to make a decent life for themselves and their children have much in common regardless of race. Two of my five children married people of a different ethnicity. It didn't enter their minds that it would make a different with us. It didn't! Culturally both of these beautiful young people fit right in to our family. Perhaps racism is so ingrained in the black psyche that it cannot be eradicated? I believe it is being eradicated in the white psyche.

 

[rexlunae]

I believe most white people have moved on and are not racist, at least not in a way that causes deliberate harm to people of other races.

"Moved on"? Nice for us to be able to move on like that. We stole people, and forced labor from them, and built a country out of it, but no hard feelings on our side. Even after we allowed additional generations of segregation and deprivation following slavery. Right? We noble white folks forgive all, we're so magnanimous. And still we click our tongues and judge black culture, and ruin families and careers, and still there are white people here stereotyping against black people.

Before you can move on, there needs to be truth and reconciliation. The wrong must be acknowledged and understood, and to the extent possible, compensated. Otherwise, we're just sitting in our privileged position, ignoring the problem, assuming things won't even come back to bite us.

It appears (to me) from listening to black music, watching black TV shows and listening to black discussions and commentaries that we are culturally very different.

They've never really been allowed to participate fully in mainstream culture. Even today, there's a clear bias against hiring black actors unless for it's for a "black part", and it becomes clear when, for instance, someone suggests a black James Bond (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/02/idris-elba-responds-james-bond-comment), or when it comes time to nominate black singers for awards (http://madamenoire.com/548824/nicki-minaj-4/).

"Moving on" is a privilege, and we haven't really earned it. And we simply don't allow black people to move on.

And yet, People who are educated, brought up in two parent families, trying to make a decent life for themselves and their children have much in common regardless of race.

Well, the supposed problem of single-parent families, which have become a lot more common for all races, was largely created in black families before it was ever acceptable for anyone else, because slaves would be sold away from their families routinely. But notice, also, that we don't use white single parents to draw conclusions and justifications about the mistreatment of an entire race.

Two of my five children married people of a different ethnicity. It didn't enter their minds that it would make a different with us. It didn't! Culturally both of these beautiful young people fit right in to our family.

Just think. Only 50 years ago, those unions would have been illegal in some states.

The point isn't that I think you're anything but a kind person of good will, or that you have a whole lot of deliberate prejudice. The point is that I think white people are so complacent about race issues that they are shouting down voices that raise those issues and rationalizing ignorance surrounding racial treatment.

Perhaps racism is so ingrained in the black psyche that it cannot be eradicated? I believe it is being eradicated in the white psyche.

Sorry, but that statement is racist, bybee. You believe that white people have changed, that there's essentially nothing more for them to do, but you think racism is ingrained in black people?

Perhaps white people have spent so much time pretending to be colorblind, that they don't recognize how the explicit malady of intentional, explicit, violent prejudice has morphed into implicit assumptions and self-sustaining systems of ghettoization.

After, World War II, the government in this country built the middle class, by investing an unprecedented amount of resources into returning veterans. There were education programs, and industrial development, and there were dollars spent building nice neighborhoods in the suburbs. But there were problems. Those scholarships were for schools that often wouldn't admit black students. And the government built those neighborhoods explicitly, deliberately segregated. If you were black, you couldn't live with the white people. We live today with the positive legacy of that massive investment in the success of the bulk of the people in this country, but we also live with the legacy of the decision that black people couldn't be a part of it. And given the way that wealth, even modest wealth, passes between generations, is it surprising that we still see the same patterns from the people who have been systematically dispossessed?

 

[Yorzhik]

"Justifying racial disparities" means coming up with justifications for disparate treatment, e.g. how black people are given harsher sentences for the same crime compared to other races. If you've been following along, you shouldn't have to ask what I mean, since I was referring to a very specific phenomenon.

Let's take the issue of harsher jail sentences. What is the justification for them? Are you claiming active racism? That judges don't like dark skinned people so they are mean to them?

 

[Angel4Truth]

But who are the consumers of that media? It's certainly a lot of black people, but it's also a lot of white people too. That's what I'm getting at.

How many white people do you reckon would buy this one?

im a start a riot

(warning, very explicit lyrics)

 

[rexlunae]

Let's take the issue of harsher jail sentences. What is the justification for them? Are you claiming active racism? That judges don't like dark skinned people so they are mean to them?

Judges and juries are more likely to view black people more harshly. So it's not surprising that they use whatever discretion they have to punish them more than a similarly situated white person.

 

[bybee]

"Moved on"? Nice for us to be able to move on like that. We stole people, and forced labor from them, and built a country out of it, but no hard feelings on our side. Even after we allowed additional generations of segregation and deprivation following slavery. Right? We noble white folks forgive all, we're so magnanimous. And still we click our tongues and judge black culture, and ruin families and careers, and still there are white people here stereotyping against black people.

Before you can move on, there needs to be truth and reconciliation. The wrong must be acknowledged and understood, and to the extent possible, compensated. Otherwise, we're just sitting in our privileged position, ignoring the problem, assuming things won't even come back to bite us.



They've never really been allowed to participate fully in mainstream culture. Even today, there's a clear bias against hiring black actors unless for it's for a "black part", and it becomes clear when, for instance, someone suggests a black James Bond (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/02/idris-elba-responds-james-bond-comment), or when it comes time to nominate black singers for awards (http://madamenoire.com/548824/nicki-minaj-4/).

"Moving on" is a privilege, and we haven't really earned it. And we simply don't allow black people to move on.



Well, the supposed problem of single-parent families, which have become a lot more common for all races, was largely created in black families before it was ever acceptable for anyone else, because slaves would be sold away from their families routinely. But notice, also, that we don't use white single parents to draw conclusions and justifications about the mistreatment of an entire race.



Just think. Only 50 years ago, those unions would have been illegal in some states.

The point isn't that I think you're anything but a kind person of good will, or that you have a whole lot of deliberate prejudice. The point is that I think white people are so complacent about race issues that they are shouting down voices that raise those issues and rationalizing ignorance surrounding racial treatment.



Sorry, but that statement is racist, bybee. You believe that white people have changed, that there's essentially nothing more for them to do, but you think racism is ingrained in black people?

Perhaps white people have spent so much time pretending to be colorblind, that they don't recognize how the explicit malady of intentional, explicit, violent prejudice has morphed into implicit assumptions and self-sustaining systems of ghettoization.

After, World War II, the government in this country built the middle class, by investing an unprecedented amount of resources into returning veterans. There were education programs, and industrial development, and there were dollars spent building nice neighborhoods in the suburbs. But there were problems. Those scholarships were for schools that often wouldn't admit black students. And the government built those neighborhoods explicitly, deliberately segregated. If you were black, you couldn't live with the white people. We live today with the positive legacy of that massive investment in the success of the bulk of the people in this country, but we also live with the legacy of the decision that black people couldn't be a part of it. And given the way that wealth, even modest wealth, passes between generations, is it surprising that we still see the same patterns from the people who have been systematically dispossessed?

My friend, there is always more to do. That includes black people as well. They must grow past their own prejudices and ingrained beliefs about white people. It is not a one sided problem.
I pray for wisdom.

 

[ok doser]

We stole people ...

"We"??? :freak:

i didn't steal anybody

who did you steal?

 

[PureX]

My friend, there is always more to do. That includes black people as well. They must grow past their own prejudices and ingrained beliefs about white people. It is not a one sided problem.
I pray for wisdom.

The problem of racial animosity is not one-sided. But the power to solve it, is mostly one-sided.

 

[bybee]

The problem of racial animosity is not one-sided. But the power to solve it, is mostly one-sided.

Nope! If it is one-sided it becomes a pronouncement and that is not the way to resolve anything.

 

[ok doser]

The problem of racial animosity is not one-sided. But the power to solve it, is mostly one-sided.

well, all them blacks filled with racial animosity better get busy working on it, doncha you think?

 

[ClimateSanity]

"Moved on"? Nice for us to be able to move on like that. We stole people, and forced labor from them, and built a country out of it, but no hard feelings on our side. Even after we allowed additional generations of segregation and deprivation following slavery. Right? We noble white folks forgive all, we're so magnanimous. And still we click our tongues and judge black culture, and ruin families and careers, and still there are white people here stereotyping against black people.

We "white people" never stole people or forced labor from them or did any country building. Many of us are ancestors of those people whom you refer to, but none of us did ANY OF THOSE THINGS. We are not responsible for any of it. Neither did any of us allow segregation and deprivation. Your sarcasm is meaningless as it is aimed at no one. Only a figment of your imagination. Click our tongues at black culture? Yes, we point out how awful a culture it is. Why should we sugar coat it? It is responsible for their broken families and high incarceration rates. Why should we pretend it doesn't exist? Are we saying we are better people? No. We are simply pointing out the solution to the problem Alate and you are groveling in the dirt about. You don't want a solution to the problem evidently. You have this white guilt that you live under that keeps you from rationally thinking about the problem.

What families and careers are white people ruining? Most of the actions of white people have no direct bearing on any black person at all. You are speaking of us as a collective. People don't act as a collective....only in the mind of the socialist progressive as yourself. Who is stereotyping on this page? Nobody is saying as far as I can see that all black people act according to these stereotypes. The behaviors that are described in those sterotypes are very real though and they happen everyday in much more than just rare instances. They happen enough that they must be mentioned when discussing the nature of the problem. But of course, you are not really interested in solving the race problem. All you care about is forcing people to think exactly like you do or else shame them with your insults and sarcasm if they don't.

 

[jgarden]

1. Ireland provides free education (including university) for all its citizens - if they can make that kind of investment in their future why can't America.

2. Those in prison should have access to an education where demonstrated success could result in a reduced sentence.

3. "ClimateSanity" fails to realize that the sins associated with slavery take centuries to rectify themselves. When you destroy a people's culture and family ties, they can't be re-established with the stroke of a pen.

 

[glassjester]

We "white people" never stole people or forced labor from them or did any country building. Many of us are ancestors of those people whom you refer to, but none of us did ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

Permission to nitpick?

 

[glassjester]

Two of my five children married people of a different ethnicity.

This could be a big part of the "solution" to the race "problem," couldn't it?