ECT What is the Will of God . . .

[nikolai_42]

You told me that I don't know what the word "know" means and that is exactly what I addressed in regard to knowing the Lord Jesus:

Those who "know" the Lord Jesus by believing the gospel really KNOW Him. After all, "faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen" (Heb.11:1). He has given us an understanding that we may KNOW Him:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.5:20).​

My point is that you asked me what's next. Since I already know the Lord Jesus I want to serve Him so I tell others the good news about the Him as Lord and Savior so they can know Him too.

That is my answer and nothing you have said even hints that I am wrong.

{Emphasis added}

I said that a person cannot "know" the Lord Jesus until he believes the gospel. And I never said anyone has the full knowledge of Him before he can share the good news with others. And I never said that that anyone has a complete knowledge of Him upon belief because a Christian's knowledge of Him happens over time (2 Pet.3:18).

So what's your beef?

You're stuck on "before" when CR is talking about "after". And so your statements that you know Christ and then that you already know him come across as indicating (especially in tandem with your talking about telling others) that that is the essence of knowing Him. To be saved and then to evangelize. Paul's statements make it clear that his salvation was just the starting point. CR is essentially asking "The starting point of what?". And since your answers seem to deal with knowing Christ as an accomplished fact (after which you move on to evangelize) the implication is that salvation isn't the starting point of knowing Christ but rather the starting point of telling as many others about Him as possible. Your approach seems binary whereas CR doesn't (I don't believe) look at it as an either/or situation. You can evangelize AND come to know Christ more at the same time.

So my beef is that after 2 pages of back and forth, I'm still not sure what your response is. Thus far, it simply seems like knowing Christ is done. Once you didn't know Him. Then you came to know Him. End of story (as far as knowing Him is concerned). You come across as though you've moved on from knowing Him to preaching Him.

So I would ask you - is knowing Christ a lifelong pursuit or is it (as you have said) the case that you already know Him?

 

[Faither]

Of course you conveniently left out the primary definition given by Vine: "primarily, 'firm persuasion,' a conviction based upon hearing."

I suppose these days with Google you can show pisteuo is anything you want . I have the book in my hand , and this is every word that defines pisteuo

Vines Greek dictionary :. The main elements in Faith in its relation to the invisible God , as distinct from Faith in man , are especially brought out in the use of this noun pistis and corresponding verb pisteuo ;. They are (1) a firm conviction , producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth . (2) a personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender , prominence is given to one or the other of these two elements according to the context . ALL THIS STANDS IN CONTRAST TO BELIEF IN IT'S PURELY NATURAL EXERCISE, WHICH CONSISTS OF AN OPINION HELD IN GOOD FAITH WITHOUT NECESSARY REFERENCE TO IT'S PROOF. THE OBJECT OF ABRAHAM'S FAITH WAS " NOT" God's PROMISE, BUT HIS FAITH RESTED ON GOD HIMSELF .

Not one word about ," hearing God's word " ! It accually gives another disclaimer as the Strongs does , that pisteuo means " NOT " just to believe in God or His word .

 

[Cross Reference]

I said that a person cannot "know" the Lord Jesus until he believes the gospel.

Back off a notch or two. No one has any "beef" with anyone!

Ponder this passage for an understanding of the word "know" as it applies to the intimacy Mary was gifted with for the perfection of the conception by the Holy Ghost that resulted in the birth of Jesus Christ and that the only one to "KNOW" Mary for this miracle birth would be the Holy Spirit and for reasons that should not require an explanation:

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and THEY shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: . . . . . And [he]"KNEW" HER NOT until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and HE [Joseph] called his name JESUS." Matthew 1:23-25 (KJV)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not one word about ," hearing God's word " ! It accually gives another disclaimer as the Strongs does , that pisteuo means " NOT " just to believe in God or His word .

In case you forgot we are talking about the meaning which Vine's gives for the Greek word translated "faith."

And I quoted that source and gave a meaning of that word which contradicts what you said about Vine's definition of the word.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

{Emphasis added}

Here are the words of mine upon which you put the emphasis:

"Since I already know the Lord Jesus..."​

Why did you put an emphasis on those words of mine? I have already said I don't know everything about Him but I do know Him.

Those who "know" the Lord Jesus by believing the gospel really KNOW Him. After all, "faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen" (Heb.11:1). He has given us an understanding that we may KNOW Him:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.5:20).​

This knowledge which a Christian has of the Lord Jesus is supernatural in nature, as witnessed by Paul's following words:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).​

Do you know the Lord Jesus? If your answer is "yes" tell me how you came to know Him.

 

[Faither]

In case you forgot we are talking about the meaning WHICH Vine's gives for the Greek word translated "faith."

And I quoted that source and gave a meaning of that word which contradicts what you said about Vine's definition of the word.

Faith is a noun , a person , place ,or thing , pistis in the Greek . Pisteuo is the corresponding verb form of the noun pistis , where your getting the mistranslated words believe , believing , and believer .

You are promoting that to know God's will or to know Him is to " believe " in His word , that's just not true . Every time you see the words believe , believer , and believing in scripture , they come from the verb pisteuo , not the noun pistis .
The English language has no corresponding verb to the noun " Faith" like the Greek does , that's how it was mistranslatied .

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ponder this passage for an understanding of the word "know" as it applies to the intimacy Mary was gifted with for the perfection of the conception by the Holy Ghost that resulted in the birth of Jesus Christ and that the only one to "KNOW" Mary for this miracle birth would be the Holy Spirit and for reasons that should not require an explanation:

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and THEY shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: . . . . . And [he]"KNEW" HER NOT until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and HE [Joseph] called his name JESUS." Matthew 1:23-25 (KJV)

Can you tell us exactly in what way you are speaking about a person knowing the Lord Jesus as it relates to Joseph not "knowing" Mary until the Lord Jesus was born of her.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are promoting that to know God's will or to know Him is to " believe " in His word , that's just not true .

So tell me what the Greek word translated "believed" in the following passage means:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

 

[Faither]

So tell me what the Greek word translated "believed" in the following passage means:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

The word pisteuo , or what we know as " believe" means to commit unto , a personal surrender to Him,and a life inspired by such surrender . We , or anyone can make a commitment or surrender to Christ , but only we and Jesus know if the commitment or surrendered life is genuine or not . If the surrendered life is not genuine , the called out one stays at the drawing of the Father stage of the Salvation journey , and hence Christ will not commit Himself into us , as seen in the scripture you presented .

 

[Faither]

Jerry , the scripture you presented also shows a truth , that Jesus accepts us , we don't be accept Him .

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The word pisteuo , or what we know as " believe" means to commit unto , a personal surrender to Him,and a life inspired by such surrender . We , or anyone can make a commitment or surrender to Christ , but only we and Jesus know if the commitment or surrendered life is genuine or not . If the surrendered life is not genuine , the called out one stays at the drawing of the Father stage of the Salvation journey , and hence Christ will not commit Himself into us , as seen in the scripture you presented .

You told us what the Greek word translated "believed" in the following passage does not mean but tell us what it does mean:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

 

[Faither]

You told us what the Greek word translated "believed" in the following passage does not mean but tell us what it does mean:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

I did Jerry , it means they saw Christ doing miracles , they committed themselves to Him , but it wasn't a genuine commitment or surrendered life . True pisteuo starts as a genuine commitment or surrendered life " and " a life inspired by such surrender . That genuine surrendered life grows into an eventual completely surrendered life .

What those ones did is they surrendered their lives or committed themselves to Christ , and then turned around and continued to serve themselves and their life . Christ knew their hearts and would not commit Himself to a Luke warm or half measure of pisteuo .

Your asking great questions Jerry , if I'm not being clear in my replies , ask more questions .

 

[nikolai_42]

Here are the words of mine upon which you put the emphasis:

"Since I already know the Lord Jesus..."​

Why did you put an emphasis on those words of mine? I have already said I don't know everything about Him but I do know Him.

I won't dispute that (though I didn't see it in this thread - it may well be there). The reason I put the emphasis on those words is that your use of the word "know" (which CR is leaning on) is critical. Knowing about Him and knowing Him are two different things, wouldn't you agree? Paul's words to the Philippian church were fairly strong in terms of how that knowledge manifests itself (knowing the power of His resurrection AND the fellowship of His suffering). This is not language consistent merely with knowing about Jesus. And Paul clearly makes the statement that he wants that (i.e. he doesn't have it yet). So your statement that you already know Him (with which I don't disagree) is only true insofar as Jesus says His sheep know His voice and they follow Him.

Those who "know" the Lord Jesus by believing the gospel really KNOW Him. After all, "faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen" (Heb.11:1). He has given us an understanding that we may KNOW Him:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn.5:20).​

Notice John also says may know Him...in agreement with Paul's phrasing.

This knowledge which a Christian has of the Lord Jesus is supernatural in nature, as witnessed by Paul's following words:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).​

Do you know the Lord Jesus? If your answer is "yes" tell me how you came to know Him.

Faith, here, is not in question. Faith is foundational, of course. But faith implies not seeing and even not really knowing. It implies trust. And it is certainly true that trust means we must be convinced of Him in whom we trust. But that trust does not imply anything beyond being convinced that He is faithful who promised. It is trust that - but it necessarily means much is not seen. To use CR's analogy, you can learn all you want about marriage, become a so-called expert in the field and even understand the mechanics of it. But until you are actually married, it is all so much theory. The unmarried expert and the one celebrating his 25th wedding anniversary may both affirm the same statements (knowledge about) but only the married individual has proper knowledge (in the sense talked about here).

In the context CR is using, faith is assumed. But true knowledge is not. You don't believe in God because you are at that place where you truly know Him. You believe in Him because He reveals Himself to you. For some, that means a radical and almost instantaneous transformation - but even then they don't know Him. They are often enthralled by the change He wrought in them.

Do I know Him? I'm growing in my knowledge of Him but nowhere near saying I truly know Him. I have no moment that I can easily point to where I was instantaneously and manifestly converted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Notice John also says may know Him...in agreement with Paul's phrasing.

The word "may" has been added to the verse. In Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words the Greek word translated "know" in this verse means the "idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., Jhn 8:32; 14:20, 31; 17:3; Gal 4:9 (1st part); 1Jo 2:3, 13, 14; 4:6, 8, 16; 5:20; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ."

That is why we see the following translation of the same verse:

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20; NET).​

Do I know Him? I'm growing in my knowledge of Him but nowhere near saying I truly know Him. I have no moment that I can easily point to where I was instantaneously and manifestly converted.

Even though it happened many years ago I remember it like it was yesterday when I was born again, born of God. Even though I called myself a Christian for quite some time I still had doubts. But upon being born again every single one of those doubts disappeared completely.

I was given the insight to know the Lord Jesus at that time as the Greek word translated "faith" means the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I did Jerry , it means they saw Christ doing miracles , they committed themselves to Him , but it wasn't a genuine commitment or surrendered life . True pisteuo starts as a genuine commitment or surrendered life " and " a life inspired by such surrender . That genuine surrendered life grows into an eventual completely surrendered life .

You described those people but you did not give a definition of the Greek word translated "believed" in that verse.

So please give us a definition of the word pisteuō as it is used at John 2:23.

For example, in another thread you gave the following definition about the meaning of the word:

"The specific act that the Greek word pisteuo needed to translate to English is, the vines: "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." The Strongs: "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded, to trust, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto," "commit to ones trust,"Be commited unto".​

I don't think that the meaning you gave for pisteuō there is the same meaning as it is used at John 2:23. Do you?

If you don't then please give me a definition of the word as it is used at John 2:23.

 

[nikolai_42]

The word "may" has been added to the verse. In Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words the Greek word translated "know" in this verse means the "idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., Jhn 8:32; 14:20, 31; 17:3; Gal 4:9 (1st part); 1Jo 2:3, 13, 14; 4:6, 8, 16; 5:20; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ."

That is why we see the following translation of the same verse:

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20; NET).​

I have about 5 minutes...all that (from Vine's) may be true but nothing of what you said addresses the mood of the verb - that BLB indicates is subjunctive.

 

[Faither]

You described those people but you did not give a definition of the Greek word translated "believed" in that verse.

So please give us a definition of the word pisteuō as it is used at John 2:23.

For example, in another thread you gave the following definition about the meaning of the word:

"The specific act that the Greek word pisteuo needed to translate to English is, the vines: "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." The Strongs: "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded, to trust, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto," "commit to ones trust,"Be commited unto".​

I don't think that the meaning you gave for pisteuō there is the same meaning as it is used at John 2:23. Do you?

If you don't then please give me a definition of the word as it is used at John 2:23.

I've given a detailed understanding of the correct definition of pisteuo relating to Jn 2:23 in two different posts . If you didn't get it from those , another attempt probably won't help .

Pretty easy to understand Jerry . Are you playing a game because of a lack of adequate responses ?

The context of pisteuo , the act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidence , as it relates to God , in any verse of Scripture is the continually surrendered life .

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Pretty easy to understand Jerry . Are you playing a game because of a lack of adequate responses ?

No, it is you who is playing games and in the process you are saying things which don't add up, such as the definition you gave for pisteuō here because the definition you give is not the complete definition of the word:

"The specific act that the Greek word pisteuo needed to translate to English is, the vines: "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." The Strongs: "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded, to trust, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto," "commit to ones trust,"Be commited unto".​

Here John uses that same word (pisteuō) and it is evident that its meaning in this passage is not the same one which you gave:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed (pisteuō) in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

You pose as an expert on the Greek word pisteuō but the facts show that you are actually ignorant about the meaning of the word.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have about 5 minutes...all that (from Vine's) may be true but nothing of what you said addresses the mood of the verb - that BLB indicates is subjunctive.

"The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina." (The Blue Letter Bible).​

It says it might or might not happen depending on the circumstances. Since the Lord is the One who is giving the insight to people so that they might know the Lord Jesus then are you going to argue that the circumstances might be that the Lord is unable to do that?

Especially when we read the following:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).​

I would say that unless a person resists the Holy Spirit he will know the Lord Jesus because his faith stands in the power of God.

 

[Faither]

No, it is you who is playing games and in the process you are saying things which don't add up, such as the definition you gave for pisteuō here because the definition you give is not the complete definition of the word:

"The specific act that the Greek word pisteuo needed to translate to English is, the vines: "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." The Strongs: "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded, to trust, to place confidence in, signifies reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto," "commit to ones trust,"Be commited unto".​

Here John uses that same word (pisteuō) and it is evident that its meaning in this passage is not the same one which you gave:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed (pisteuō) in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

You pose as an expert on the Greek word pisteuō but the facts show that you are actually ignorant about the meaning of the word.

I gave you the exact , complete , definition of pisteuo , out of the Greek dictionary , derived from the word pisteuo , the exact word the original authors used to communicate how Faith ( pistis ) is applied .

I didn't choose the word pisteuo . And I didn't define it's definition . And I didn't mistranslate it into the English . So how is it I'm playing games ? I'm presenting the truth and you refuse to accept it , claiming theses are things made up by myself .

Like I always say , the first requirement to answering the call of the Father is the ability to be honest with thy self . That is my recommendation to you . What I'm sharing with you , exposing your misunderstanding of how the Salvation journey begins , is not that difficult to understand .

Pisteuo is used 248 times in the NT . It's context is always the continually surrendered life .