What is the express image of God?
- Thread starter keypurr
- Start date
Was He born in fulfillment of Messianic prophecy and yet He was not born the Messiah in your understanding? If He fulfilled the prophecy, how do you not see that this means He was the Messiah even at His birth?
keypurr, this is the Word of God - it's not me trying to say something -
Colossians 1:14 KJV - In whom we have redemption through His Blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
that is Jesus Christ - NEXT VERSE:STILL JESUS _
Colossians 1:15 KJV - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
STILL JESUS CHRIST -
Colossians 1:16 KJV - For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him:
Colossians 1:17 KJV - And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
John 1:1-3 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.
Christ Jesus Is the Word manifest in the flesh; The Word Is God -
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory.
have a great weekend keypurr,
God Bless you -
Colossians 1:14 KJV - In whom we have redemption through His Blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
that is Jesus Christ - NEXT VERSE:STILL JESUS _
Colossians 1:15 KJV - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
STILL JESUS CHRIST -
Colossians 1:16 KJV - For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him:
Colossians 1:17 KJV - And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
John 1:1-3 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.
Christ Jesus Is the Word manifest in the flesh; The Word Is God -
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory.
have a great weekend keypurr,
God Bless you -
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Not quite.
- In the NT it is used metaphorically in Hbr 1:3, of the Son of God as "the very image (marg., 'the impress') of His substance." RV. The phrase expresses the fact that the Son "is both personally distinct from, and yet literally equal to, Him of whose essence He is the adequate imprint" (Liddon). The Son of God is not merely his "image" (His charakter), He is the "image" or impress of His substance, or essence. It is the fact of complete similarity which this word stresses in comparison with those mentioned at the end of No. 1. In the Sept., Lev 13:28 (NIV), "the mark (of the inflammation)." (Vine's)
- John 1 states very clearly; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." and then v14; "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
- See 1 above
- See 2 above
Yes, the Truth does not change, so if you are going to cast out accusations don't you think that you too should answer the difficult questions that have already been asked here in this thread? Otherwise you make yourself nothing more than a false accuser. Are you capable and willing to follow logic though it be just a little lengthy? Do you have the time? Is your soul worth it? You all seem to love using the Gospel of John to make your claims, because of the opening line of that Gospel, but if you are going to understand Logos in the way that most do because of the opening line then should we not treat the same word the same way in the rest of the same account from the same author? These are just a couple difficult questions from Pg. 60 and 61 of this thread which no one has been willing to even attempt to give and answer for:
What about these clear emphatic statements from Yeshua himself?
Do you honor them by incorporating them into your doctrine?
John 14:24
24. He that loves me not keeps not my words: and the Logos which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise, [it is] of the Sender of me, the Father.
John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but-contrariwise, the judgment of all He has given to the Son:
John 8:15
15. You judge according to the flesh: I judge no one.
John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge.
John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.
1) The Father judges no one.
2) The man Yeshua judges no one.
3) The Father has given all judgment to the Son.
4) The man Yeshua seeks not his own glory: there is one Seeker and Judge.
5) The Logos which the man Yeshua spoke is the Seeker and Judge.
6) The Logos is the Son according to the Testimony of Yeshua.
7) Heaven and earth shall pass but the words of Yeshua will not pass away.
The logic of one through seven in the above is irrefutable if you truly believe the words, doctrine, teachings, and sayings of Yeshua. How then can he say that he judges no one and yet all judgment is given to the Son? The man Yeshua and the Son are not the same entity because it is the Logos who judges in the Last Day.
Here is another which anyone who is going to judge others to be false teachers should first answer. Otherwise if you have no answer from the scripture then what right do you have to decide someone else is believing and-or teaching something that is false?
Not answering for Keypurr but I find this critical to the answer:
Luke 3:22
22. And the Spirit of the Holy One [Hagion] descended in a bodily [GSN#4984 somatikos] shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Colossians 2:9
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily [GSN#4985 somatikos (adverb of GSN#4984)].
All flesh is not the same flesh: if there is a soma psuchikos, a body natural; then there is a soma pneumatikos, a body spiritual, (re: 1 Corinthians 15:39-44).
The "flesh" of the Son of God cannot "see corruption", (soma pneumatikos).
Whether you understand Hagios in Luke 3:22 as the Holy One or simply as "Holy" in the term Holy Spirit really is inconsequential to the point here. Which ever is meant by the author is written to have descended in somatikos-bodily-corporeal form. This same word somatikos, (adverb form) is then used again by Paul in Colossians 2:9, another one of the favorite verses those such as yourself love to quote to make your case. It is used only one other place in the New Testament and that is again by Paul to Timothy in the following passage showing that this word is used for the physical and the corporeal:
1 Timothy 4:8
8. For bodily [GSN#4984 somatikos] exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
It is almost as if Paul makes sure he uses this word once again just to make sure that both Timothy, and anyone else who reads his letters, understands what somatikos means in context so that there be no misunderstanding.
Original Strong's Ref. #4984
Romanized somatikos
Pronounced so-mat-ee-kos'
from GSN4983; corporeal or physical:
KJV--bodily.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #4984
4984 // swmatikov // somatikos // so-mat-ee-kos' //
from 4983 ; TDNT - 7:1024,1140; adj
AV - bodily 2; 2
1) corporeal, bodily
1a) having a bodily form or nature
1b) pertaining to the body
Now therefore can you please explain how the Holy One or the Holy Spirit descending from the heavens "in somatikos-corporeal-bodily form as a dove" fits into your understanding of the Logos-Word becoming flesh in John 1:14? If you cannot, or decide to ignore this and go on accusing the brethren, then please know that you are in extreme danger of denying that the Son of God is come in flesh, (1 John 4:1-3 ).
keypurr
Well-known member
You do not see truth Stan. No one is equal to the creator in any way. Express image means he has the same type of character and substance of his creator. But they are two, the creator and the creature.
John 1 speaks the WORD, or logos. This is not Jesus, this is the spirit that took over him, Christ, the true spiritual son that God sent to us. God created all THROUGH his first creation Christ. The WORD became flesh, Jesus was flesh, he did not become flesh. However the spirit Christ, the express image of the Father, became flesh.
There is only one begotten son, you do understand what that means I hope.
You need to read more Stan, the content goes deeper than you have been.
keypurr
Well-known member
Define Messiah.
Messiah means one sent. Christ, spirit, was sent from heaven.
Jesus was born. You fail to understand the two.
One is a man and one is a spiritual form of the most high God.
Jesus became the Messiah when Christ went into him.
Example:
President Kennedy was born in Boston.
Does that mean he was President when he was born? No friend.
Jesus was not born the Christ, he was born the saviour. God needed a body to hold his express image, his son. The one he used to create the Universe.
For God so loved the world he SENT his son to die for it. He needed to have a son in order to SEND a son.
If He was already born in the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy how was He not already the Messiah on your view?
RevTestament
New member
Whoa there. Jesus clearly refers to Himself as the Son of God, and is the Son the Highest per Luke.
Luke 1:32
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 3:22
22. And the Holy Spirit descended in the shapelof a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Clearly referencing Jesus being baptized and not the Holy Spirit.
Further, Hebrews clearly says of Yeshua:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Now as for who is this word you say Jesus refers to:
Isa 22:20 ¶And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house.
keypurr
Well-known member
It was foretold when he would come, he did. But he needed the spirit Christ to be the SENT ONE. Christ was sent, Jesus was born. Christ came from the Father in heaven to dwell in the body of Jesus.
Not just when He would be born, but that it would be a virgin birth etc....
Do you believe that which was spoken about Jesus before His birth in the gospel accounts?
keypurr,
I am assuming you are correct about the Bible speaking about when (He was to be born).
And where!
What accusations? I'm pretty sure I've just been giving scripture that he does not respond to in kind. Are you also Unitarian?
There really have been no difficult questions here, so nothing really to deal with IMO. Having said that, my contribution has been considerable given the number of posts I have done in the same amount of time you've been here, and this is NOT my first go round so your self righteous response aside do you have a point to make instead of being verbose?
If I am a false accuser, then SHOW it from scripture, and NOT personal opining.
You have to SHOW that, not just opine about it. No one is saying that anyone is equal to the creator, but John does say that Jesus was the Creator incarnate, so refute John 1. As you continue to hang your hat on EXPRESS, when you yourself have admitted it mean EXACT representation and I have given you much exegesis on the subject, there's not really much else to respond with.
John 1 speaks OF the WORD, which is indeed about Jesus as it is the gospel which is the good news, which is Jesus.
Our spirit exists before we are born keypurr, it doesn't come into us as we come out of the birth canal. Conception is when we have our spirit, and as the Holy Spirit supplied the meta, physical and physical sperm for the conception of Jesus in Mary, it should be easy to see what the result would be unless you are deliberately ignoring the truth of who Jesus is.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
The Word (GOD) became flesh (JESUS) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word of God, and the WORD, is clear to all who receive Him. Those who don't or won't receive Him, can't see Him, as John states, because of unbelief.Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
The Word (GOD) became flesh (JESUS) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I have been reading and studying the Bible for over 44 years now keypurr, and am more than confident in who I believe in.
Jesus said: I and the Father are one.
Jesus said: If you've seen me you've seen the Father.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said:Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Is 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
It is not I that needs to read more keypurr, it is you that needs to read and accept God's true word AS it is written.For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Red emphasis mine:
Whao to you too RT,
Luke 1:32 does not contain the definite article:
Luke 1:32 Transliterated Unaccented
32. Houtos estai megas kai huios hupsistou klethesetai kai dosei auto Kurios ho Theos ton thronon Dauid tou patros autou.
"This one shall be great, and [a?] son of the Most High shall he be called, and YHWH Elohim gives to him the throne of David his father."
And as for Luke 3:22 you wrote "shapelof", (??) and completely omitted somatiko-corporeal-bodily. Do you truly believe that omitting critical data from holy writ makes your view the correct one? As for the key of the house of David that has already been touched upon previously in this thread if you were paying close enough attention. Here is a reminder:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
The Princely Power of the Empire is laid upon the shoulder, (the neck like a yoke) of the Master Teacher Yeshua, and Yeshua calls His Name, "Wonder Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace". But you and I have already been over these things in another time another place.
Sorry for your happy go lucky left handed desert goat luck but the one who is full of self righteousness is the one refusing to answer critical questions concerning the Scripture of Life, and yet because he believes himself to have already been "saved", (in direct opposition to clear emphatic statements from the Master, i.e. John 8:31, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13 to name a few) the same walks on headlong into accusing others of being false teachers just because they disagree with his own unfounded and unexplainable "mystery" theology. If the High Priest has the Seven Fingers of Elohim then you now have ten pointing at you including three of your own staring you in the face. No answer from you means you do not care about the Testimony of Yeshua and what he says.
Whao to you too RT,
Luke 1:32 does not contain the definite article:
Luke 1:32 Transliterated Unaccented
32. Houtos estai megas kai huios hupsistou klethesetai kai dosei auto Kurios ho Theos ton thronon Dauid tou patros autou.
"This one shall be great, and [a?] son of the Most High shall he be called, and YHWH Elohim gives to him the throne of David his father."
And as for Luke 3:22 you wrote "shapelof", (??) and completely omitted somatiko-corporeal-bodily. Do you truly believe that omitting critical data from holy writ makes your view the correct one? As for the key of the house of David that has already been touched upon previously in this thread if you were paying close enough attention. Here is a reminder:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
The Princely Power of the Empire is laid upon the shoulder, (the neck like a yoke) of the Master Teacher Yeshua, and Yeshua calls His Name, "Wonder Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace". But you and I have already been over these things in another time another place.
Sorry for your happy go lucky left handed desert goat luck but the one who is full of self righteousness is the one refusing to answer critical questions concerning the Scripture of Life, and yet because he believes himself to have already been "saved", (in direct opposition to clear emphatic statements from the Master, i.e. John 8:31, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13 to name a few) the same walks on headlong into accusing others of being false teachers just because they disagree with his own unfounded and unexplainable "mystery" theology. If the High Priest has the Seven Fingers of Elohim then you now have ten pointing at you including three of your own staring you in the face. No answer from you means you do not care about the Testimony of Yeshua and what he says.
Opinion, thy name is daqq.
Now say something that requires addressing or be quiet. I'm really fed up with supercilious people like you.
Anyone reading the post addressed from myself to you on the previous page may clearly see that it is not my opinion but rather the words of Messiah from the Gospel of John which you deem "opinion" and likewise unworthy of your illustrious commentary:
Yes, the Truth does not change, so if you are going to cast out accusations don't you think that you too should answer the difficult questions that have already been asked here in this thread? Otherwise you make yourself nothing more than a false accuser. Are you capable and willing to follow logic though it be just a little lengthy? Do you have the time? Is your soul worth it? You all seem to love using the Gospel of John to make your claims, because of the opening line of that Gospel, but if you are going to understand Logos in the way that most do because of the opening line then should we not treat the same word the same way in the rest of the same account from the same author? These are just a couple difficult questions from Pg. 60 and 61 of this thread which no one has been willing to even attempt to give and answer for:
The logic of one through seven in the above is irrefutable if you truly believe the words, doctrine, teachings, and sayings of Yeshua. How then can he say that he judges no one and yet all judgment is given to the Son? The man Yeshua and the Son are not the same entity because it is the Logos who judges in the Last Day.Originally Posted by daqqWhat about these clear emphatic statements from Yeshua himself?
Do you honor them by incorporating them into your doctrine?
John 14:24
24. He that loves me not keeps not my words: and the Logos which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise, [it is] of the Sender of me, the Father.
John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but-contrariwise, the judgment of all He has given to the Son:
John 8:15
15. You judge according to the flesh: I judge no one.
John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge.
John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.
1) The Father judges no one.
2) The man Yeshua judges no one.
3) The Father has given all judgment to the Son.
4) The man Yeshua seeks not his own glory: there is one Seeker and Judge.
5) The Logos which the man Yeshua spoke is the Seeker and Judge.
6) The Logos is the Son according to the Testimony of Yeshua.
7) Heaven and earth shall pass but the words of Yeshua will not pass away.
Here is another which anyone who is going to judge others to be false teachers should first answer. Otherwise if you have no answer from the scripture then what right do you have to decide someone else is believing and-or teaching something that is false?Originally Posted by daqq
Therefore this the Judge cannot be the man Yeshua:
Revelation 19:11-13 KJV
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word [Logos] of God.
Who then does the man Yeshua say this is in the above passage?
Likewise, again, as previously posted:
John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.
Whether you understand Hagios in Luke 3:22 as the Holy One or simply as "Holy" in the term Holy Spirit really is inconsequential to the point here. Which ever is meant by the author is written to have descended in somatikos-bodily-corporeal form. This same word somatikos, (adverb form) is then used again by Paul in Colossians 2:9, another one of the favorite verses those such as yourself love to quote to make your case. It is used only one other place in the New Testament and that is again by Paul to Timothy in the following passage showing that this word is used for the physical and the corporeal:Originally Posted by daqq
Luke 3:22
22. And the Spirit of the Holy One [Hagion] descended in a bodily [GSN#4984 somatikos] shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Colossians 2:9
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily [GSN#4985 somatikos (adverb of GSN#4984)].
All flesh is not the same flesh: if there is a soma psuchikos, a body natural; then there is a soma pneumatikos, a body spiritual, (re: 1 Corinthians 15:39-44).
The "flesh" of the Son of God cannot "see corruption", (soma pneumatikos).
1 Timothy 4:8
8. For bodily [GSN#4984 somatikos] exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
It is almost as if Paul makes sure he uses this word once again just to make sure that both Timothy, and anyone else who reads his letters, understands what somatikos means in context so that there be no misunderstanding.
Original Strong's Ref. #4984
Romanized somatikos
Pronounced so-mat-ee-kos'
from GSN4983; corporeal or physical:
KJV--bodily.
BDB - Strong's Greek Definition for #4984
4984 // swmatikov // somatikos // so-mat-ee-kos' //
from 4983 ; TDNT - 7:1024,1140; adj
AV - bodily 2; 2
1) corporeal, bodily
1a) having a bodily form or nature
1b) pertaining to the body
Now therefore can you please explain how the Holy One or the Holy Spirit descending from the heavens "in somatikos-corporeal-bodily form as a dove" fits into your understanding of the Logos-Word becoming flesh in John 1:14? If you cannot, or decide to ignore this and go on accusing the brethren, then please know that you are in extreme danger of denying that the Son of God is come in flesh, (1 John 4:1-3 ).
Clearly you are a fraud and a false accuser defending your own religion as opposed to the actual Testimony of Yeshua which you disregard in your mystery theology conjured up long ago in the minds of carnal men. :crackup:
keypurr
Well-known member
I know what is the word of Got Patrick, but I disagree with what you think it is saying or returning to. You need to separate the spiritual from the flesh. There was a Christ long before there was a Jesus.
Col 1 speaks of the two, Christ is the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of creatures. Jesus was born as a man, he was in bedded with Christ at his baptism. We must understand that the verse speaks of both Christ and Jesus Christ.
Jesus was not at the creation, you need to consider that Christ spoke through Jesus.
I do not agree that Jesus is the WORD in John 1, the WORD or logos is the Christ spirit that was in him. Christ became flesh, Jesus was born flesh.
God was manifest , made known, in Christ Jesus. I understand the reasons why it is hard for you to see what I try to display. It is hard to discard tradition friend.
It is OK to disagree Patrick, we all think we know the answers to the hidden secrets in scripture. I consider all my brothers and respect their right to disagree. But I am super sure that God has given me these thoughts.
Bless you and yours friend.
keypurr
Well-known member
Are you refuring to his virgin birth? Yes, I believe that for Jesus is the flesh son of the most high God. He had to be a sinless man to be the Lamb of God.
I believe God had a son before the creation and it was not the man Jesus.