What is the express image of God?

[RBBI]

@ daqq......good word! And as it was of old, no stone shall be sitting upon another, and some of us have already shed the stones that desired to sit upon us, Amen? Peace

 

[daqq]

@ daqq......good word! And as it was of old, no stone shall be sitting upon another, and some of us have already shed the stones that desired to sit upon us, Amen? Peace

In my allegory it is more like this: for way too long I refused to fall upon the Stone and be broken. Then one day the Stone fell from the heavens upon Beldak, my former boss, and ground him to powder like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. What was left after that was me: flat as daq-daqaq, (HSN#1851, HSN#1854). That Stone which had been rejected for so long actually struck at the footings of the foundations when it demolished my fourfold empire. Now, instead of Beldak, the Man whose name is the Stone is the great mountain which fills all the Land.

 

[RBBI]

I understand that too. He once gave me a dream of ground powder on my head, lol.....boy, have I been crushed and ground, over and over again. Whew! Peace

 

[Ben Masada]

Yeshua Says: I am the Resurrection, and the Life: he that is faithfully-trusting into me, though he dies, he shall Live: and all who Live and are faithfully-trusting into me shall absolutely not die into the age! Believe you this?

Of course not! There is absolutely no evidence of someone who believed in Yeshua and did not die. We all die whether we believe in him or not.

 

[daqq]

Of course not! There is absolutely no evidence of someone who believed in Yeshua and did not die. We all die whether we believe in him or not.

IF one believes the supreme order which the Teacher lays forth in the Matthew version of the Olivet Discourse then the same will understand that being "killed" in that passage, (Matthew 24:9) does not concern the physical death of the body. In Mark we read at the end of the passage: "What I say unto you I say unto all, Watch!", (Mark 13:37) and therefore the complete discourse is to every disciple who reads those words, (not just the four who were there at that time). All of the "signs" are therefore supernal in meaning and to each in his or her own appointed times. It has nothing to do with the destruction of a temple building made with the hands of men.

This is the supreme order delivered through the Teacher:

THEY SHALL DELIVER YOU UP AND APOKTEINO-SLAY YOU!
BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END SHALL BE DELIVERED!

:sheep:

 

[Ben Masada]

IF one believes the supreme order which the Teacher lays forth in the Matthew version of the Olivet Discourse then the same will understand that being "killed" in that passage, (Matthew 24:9) does not concern the physical death of the body. In Mark we read at the end of the passage: "What I say unto you I say unto all, Watch!", (Mark 13:37) and therefore the complete discourse is to every disciple who reads those words, (not just the four who were there at that time). All of the "signs" are therefore supernal in meaning and to each in his or her own appointed times. It has nothing to do with the destruction of a temple building made with the hands of men.

This is the supreme order delivered through the Teacher:

THEY SHALL DELIVER YOU UP AND APOKTEINO-SLAY YOU!
BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END SHALL BE DELIVERED!

:sheep:

Delivered from what, for heaven's sake, from death? No one can be delivered from death. Eventually we will all die. That's a fact witnessed by all of us.

 

[keypurr]

:thumb: Hey Keypurr!





I noticed you said "of the Lord from heaven" in that previous post but did not want to go into it at the time. However, now that the Spirit is free to flow with the blessing of the OP I would suggest the following:

The Textus Receptus indeed says that the second man is "the Lord from heaven", (at least that is how the AV-KJV renders it without the "of" which you had rendered and is forever debateable anyways as you probably know) but the Majority GNT-Morph Texts do not contain "the Lord" in that same statement:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; [Gen 2:7] the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [Messiah Yeshua].
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is the Lord from heaven [?].

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 ASV
45. So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul [Gen 2:7]. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit [Messiah Yeshua].
46. Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven [Gen 1:26-27].

I would strongly suggest that Paul does not use "the Lord" which is found in the TR version of 1 Cor 15:47 for several reasons. First reason is that the Torah and all the Prophets prophesied until Yochanan, (Matthew 11:13) and this includes Genesis and the creation account. Second reason is that the first man Adam which Paul speaks of was clearly formed in Genesis 2:7, (choikos, earthy, dust-like). However, when we read that account, we see that the first anthropon Adam was formed of dust from the adamah BEFORE there was any plant of the field in the earth, and BEFORE any herb of the field had sprouted or grown. This means the first Adam was taken from the dust of the adamah in qedem - olam past, that is, before time because it is before the fourth day creation of the greater light, the lesser light, and the stars, (which were created for signs, seasons, times, appointed times, days, and years, according to the Word spoken therein). The second man is therefore the one given dominion over the fish of the sea, fowls of the heavens, and all the beasts of the earth, and everything that moves upon the earth. That one is from the heavens, and is cut down in the image of Elohim in Genesis 1:26-27. It is not that the second man is not the Master from the heavens but that if that statement is included in 1 Cor 15:47 then most will not likely ever even begin to think that Paul speaks of the creation account in that statement. In other words to truly understand what is being said one must understand that Golgotha is the Sixth Day prophesied in Genesis 1, (hehe). Therefore likewise Yeshua says, "My Father works UNTIL NOW, and I work", (when he was accused of breaking their version of Shabbat, John 5:16-17).

The AENT of 1 Cor 15:47 reads this way:

The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was Master YHWH from heaven.

Thought you might be interested.

Yes, I been seein' that too. :cheers:

I concur that the TR's rendition of the second man being "the Lord from heaven" may not be the most accurate translation here, since we see that Paul's description of the 'heavenly man' is not necessarily about Jesus only (who no doubt serves as the prototype of the resurrected man) but is the universal archetype of resurrected man (all mankind who qualify and undergo this transformation).

We see this better in the full context of this passage which further affirms that we will bear the "image" of the heavenly man (essentially 'God' himself, of whom the Lord Jesus is the express image, and we ourselves AS we put on the heavenly form).



Just to meditate upon the image of the heavenly, (Christ in us, the hope of glory) is a wondrous thing As the image of divinity is further unfolded in us, the greater glory to God.

 

[freelight]

From death to life........

From death to life........

Delivered from what, for heaven's sake, from death? No one can be delivered from death. Eventually we will all die. That's a fact witnessed by all of us.

Martha and Jesus apparently believed in a resurrection of souls, whether a mass-resurrection at the end of a dispensation or individual resurrections occurring at any point in time. Also note that Pharisees, Essenes and other Jewish groups did believe in 'resurrection' (also may include 'reincarnation'), the afterlife and angels - Your 'Sadducee' position is noted (since they reject resurrection and angels. A rather 'stunted' view IMO)

Ample evidence for an afterlife and continued consciousness after death exists, go here and here for starters :sherlock: :thumb:

~*~*~

Continuing John's account concerning the death of Lazarus we read -

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off; 19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house. 21 Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”



- NASB

You may know that the entire NT is about the good news of deliverance from death (from perishing) and the receiving eternal life (light and immortality) thru Jesus the Christ. This is a fundamental point of the "gospel" proclaimed in the NT. Remember,....this 'mortality' shall put on 'immortality'! And by faith in the living Christ, which Jesus serves as the vehicle and representation of divine Sonship, WE TOO recognize and awaken to our own sonship with 'God', and with Jesus...to become partakers of the divine nature. 'Eternal' life refers to the 'quality' and 'character' of life, and if it be the very life of 'God', (since there is no other source of 'life') then so be it

 

[keypurr]

Because the Jezebel spirit that sits upon the mountains of men, seeks to keep us bound up in religious works and mindsets instead of allowing the Spirit to work through us and finally consume us. Once that yoke is broken off our necks where she sits, nothing is impossible with HaShem. Peace

Amen, Amen

 

[daqq]

The AENT of 1 Cor 15:47 reads this way:

The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was Master YHWH from heaven.

Thought you might be interested.

I appreciate that friend, and I hope you do not mind me saying so because I mean it only for good, but this is one of the reasons I suggested to be careful with that translation. For what that rendering suggests to me is that they have taken the TR and "back translated" it into Aramaic and yet do not fully understand the old rule concerning the definite article when it is used with Kurios, ("ho Kurios"). When you see "ho Kurios" it for the most part should be understood as "the Master" as shown in the following translation which also follows the Textus Receptus:

1 Corinthians 15:47 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
47. The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.
http://biblehub.com/isr/1_corinthians/15.htm

And "ho Kurios" is exactly what we find in that group of manuscript codices:
http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-47.htm

It is error to understand this passage to be speaking of the Father, (YHWH) and His name should not have been inserted into the text imo. When we see Kurios without the definite article that is when it implies the name of the Father because the Septuagint first lays out this practice, (only when it concerns the Name of the Father which was replaced with Kurios) as carried over from the Hebrew which does not tolerate a definite article with proper names, and the Apostolic writers follow the same practice from the Septuagint which they quote from extensively. It is good to learn the culture and the thinking, but as suggested, be careful, and thanks for posting that.

 

[daqq]

Delivered from what, for heaven's sake, from death? No one can be delivered from death. Eventually we will all die. That's a fact witnessed by all of us.

Martha and Jesus apparently believed in a resurrection of souls, whether a mass-resurrection at the end of a dispensation or individual resurrections occurring at any point in time. Also note that Pharisees, Essenes and other Jewish groups did believe in 'resurrection' (also may include 'reincarnation'), the afterlife and angels - Your 'Sadducee' position is noted (since they reject resurrection and angels. A rather 'stunted' view IMO)

Ample evidence for an afterlife and continued consciousness after death exists, go here and here for starters :sherlock: :thumb:

~*~*~

Continuing John's account concerning the death of Lazarus we read -



You may know that the entire NT is about the good news of deliverance from death (from perishing) and the receiving eternal life (light and immortality) thru Jesus the Christ. This is a fundamental point of the "gospel" proclaimed in the NT. Remember,....this 'mortality' shall put on 'immortality'! And by faith in the living Christ, which Jesus serves as the vehicle and representation of divine Sonship, WE TOO recognize and awaken to our own sonship with 'God', and with Jesus...to become partakers of the divine nature. 'Eternal' life refers to the 'quality' and 'character' of life, and if it be the very life of 'God', (since there is no other source of 'life') then so be it

Ben Masada, I could not have answered much better than Freelight:
Except maybe to say: "TO-DAY IS THE DAY!"

 

[RBBI]

I second that Amen....

 

[keypurr]

I appreciate that friend, and I hope you do not mind me saying so because I mean it only for good, but this is one of the reasons I suggested to be careful with that translation. For what that rendering suggests to me is that they have taken the TR and "back translated" it into Aramaic and yet do not fully understand the old rule concerning the definite article when it is used with Kurios, ("ho Kurios"). When you see "ho Kurios" it for the most part should be understood as "the Master" as shown in the following translation which also follows the Textus Receptus:

1 Corinthians 15:47 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
47. The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.
http://biblehub.com/isr/1_corinthians/15.htm

And "ho Kurios" is exactly what we find in that group of manuscript codices:
http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-47.htm

It is error to understand this passage to be speaking of the Father, (YHWH) and His name should not have been inserted into the text imo. When we see Kurios without the definite article that is when it implies the name of the Father because the Septuagint first lays out this practice, (only when it concerns the Name of the Father which was replaced with Kurios) as carried over from the Hebrew which does not tolerate a definite article with proper names, and the Apostolic writers follow the same practice from the Septuagint which they quote from extensively. It is good to learn the culture and the thinking, but as suggested, be careful, and thanks for posting that.

I have seen a few place where Christ appears to be called Master YHWH. So maybe it is not in error. But I wish to finish the entire book before I decide which translation is better. So far, I like the AENT better than the Greek translations. I confess that I am really not that educated in where all these translations originate.

 

[daqq]

I have seen a few place where Christ appears to be called Master YHWH. So maybe it is not in error. But I wish to finish the entire book before I decide which translation is better. So far, I like the AENT better than the Greek translations. I confess that I am really not that educated in where all these translations originate.

There are places where it is appropriate and that is especially true in the Gospel accounts where the practice is laid out, (but things do get a little fuzzy sometimes in the epistles of Paul). I cannot remember how far back it was but there was a place, I believe in this thread, where this was first brought up with "StanJ" and Matthew 1:20 was quoted as an example. Here is the next example immediately following the previous passage, (and I quote it transliterated instead of Greek in hopes that it might be easier to follow). We see "Kuriou" in Matthew 1:22, without the definite article, and again in this case it is abundantly clear that it speaks of the Father. The fallacy of rendering Kurios as "the Lord" everywhere is thus exposed over and over again in all of the modern English translations. In this instance, which is magnified thousands of times over throughout, there is no definite article in the Greek but rather it is inserted into the English by the translators:

Matthew 1:22 KJV
22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 1:22 Transliterated Unaccented
22. Touto de holon gegonen hina plerothe to rethen hupo Kuriou dia tou profetou legontos

Matthew 1:22
22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by/of YHWH through the prophet, saying:

One may absolutely know that the above is correct because what follows in Matthew 1:23 is the quote from Isaiah 7:14, (context: Isaiah 7:10-13 ASV).

 

[lifeisgood]

Delivered from what, for heaven's sake, from death? No one can be delivered from death. Eventually we will all die. That's a fact witnessed by all of us.

Physical death is NOT the cessation of existence.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).

This verse is speaking of the body, for in the next verse we read:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).

 

[RBBI]

Amen, no it's not.....

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Martha and Jesus apparently believed in a resurrection of souls, whether a mass-resurrection at the end of a dispensation or individual resurrections occurring at any point in time.

2 - Also note that Pharisees, Essenes and other Jewish groups did believe in 'resurrection' (also may include 'reincarnation'), the afterlife and angels - Your 'Sadducee' position is noted (since they reject resurrection and angels. A rather 'stunted' view IMO)

3 - Ample evidence for an afterlife and continued consciousness after death exists.

4 - You may know that the entire NT is about the good news of deliverance from death (from perishing) and the receiving eternal life (light and immortality) thru Jesus the Christ. This is a fundamental point of the "gospel" proclaimed in the NT.

5 - Remember,....this 'mortality' shall put on 'immortality'! And by faith in the living Christ, which Jesus serves as the vehicle and representation of divine Sonship, WE TOO recognize and awaken to our own sonship with 'God', and with Jesus...to become partakers of the divine nature. 'Eternal' life refers to the 'quality' and 'character' of life, and if it be the very life of 'God', (since there is no other source of 'life') then so be it

1 - No, they didn't. They were Jews just like Jesus whose Faith was Judaism which through the Tanach states that once dead we will never return from the grave. Read II Sam. 12:23; 14:14, Isa. 26:14; Job 7:9; and Job 10:21.

2 - Neither Pharisees nor Essenes or any other Jewish groups believed in bodily resurrection. They were loyal Jews and as such, they would not contradict their own Scriptures whose quotes I have posted just above.

3 - Please, quote the Scriptures for evidences for an afterlife and continuous consciousness because, what I have is that no one can live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23)

4 - Jesus was a Jew and, the NT, supposedly to be about Jesus is rather against his Faith which was Judaism. No one can be delivered from death. People die every day; as children, young people and old. And no one receives eternal life because, according to Gen. 3:22,23, no one can live forever. Jesus himself died as evidence of the truth of the Scriptures.

5 - Every one, believing in Jesus or not, has died since Jesus lived and died 2000 years ago.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada, I could not have answered much better than Freelight:
Except maybe to say: "TO-DAY IS THE DAY!"

Have you read my reply to Freelight in the post just above? He said nothing different from any other Christian intoxicated with Christian pre-conceived notions which only contradict the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Physical death is NOT the cessation of existence.

2 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

3 - All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).

4 - This verse is speaking of the body, for in the next verse we read:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).

1 - What are you talking about! Have you ever experienced physical death to assert that physical death is not cessation of existence?

2 - The spirit here is only an embellishment for the breath of life which once out of the body, man has ceased to exist.

3 - That's the first truth you have said so far because, indeed, the grave is the place where we are all supposed to turn to someday.

4 - Please, read the two verses prior to Eccles. 3:21. The author is comparing the breath of life of man with that of the beast and stating that there is no difference as whereto both go, upward or downward. The only difference between the beat and man is only while they live as the Lord is not the God of the dead but of the living only. (Mark 12:27; Psalm 88:6)

 

[lifeisgood]

1 - What are you talking about! Have you ever experienced physical death to assert that physical death is not cessation of existence?

Speaking from experience, huh?

2 - The spirit here is only an embellishment for the breath of life which once out of the body, man has ceased to exist.

Speaking from experience, huh?

3 - That's the first truth you have said so far because, indeed, the grave is the place where we are all supposed to turn to someday.

Physically, yes.
Spiritually, no.

4 - Please, read the two verses prior to Eccles. 3:21. The author is comparing the breath of life of man with that of the beast and stating that there is no difference as whereto both go, upward or downward. The only difference between the beat and man is only while they live as the Lord is not the God of the dead but of the living only. (Mark 12:27; Psalm 88:6)

Where have you, you, and yourself, decided to go?

Upward?
or
Downward?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)