What is going on in Daniel 9?

[KingdomRose]

An old man walked onto my job site and handed me a watchtower magazine.

I took it.

Threw it in the gutter in front of him and squished it with my boot.

Then I told him to get the hell outta here.


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You are revolting.

Where is your basic humanity and kindness? You're as far from Christ as anyone I've run into yet.


"Happy are [JWs] when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since your reward is great in the heavens." (Matt.5:11,12)

 

[KingdomRose]

Abomination of Desolation triggers the Day of the Lord. About 20% of the Bible deals with this subject. PS: It's not "one day", but a period of time.

I agree it is a period of time. But can you explain where you get the "Day of the Lord" from the "final week of years" of Daniel 9?

 

[KingdomRose]

There is no "J" in Hebrew. "Jehovah" is a word borrowed from Catholic Latin. Are you a sect of Catholicism?

You are right...there is no "J" in Hebrew. So I take it that you don't say "Jesus" when you refer to the Son of God?

 

[KingdomRose]

That's a semantic if not irrelevant point as the name Jehovah is translated varyingly throughout different languages. For example in Greek Jehovah would being with an I. In Scandinavian languages it would being with a Y. In English a J etc.

Jehovah is the anglicized and well known version of the name Yahweh that has been used commonly for century's by European and English Bible scholars. Seems quite ironic you're accusing KR of being in a Catholic Sect when the name Jehovah is not used in worship by Catholics, nor encouraged by the Catholic priesthood, and is a name that most Catholics haven't even heard of.

Your posts on this are excellent, and I thank you. Beameup has ignored them all, unfortunately. I guess JW is a false religion because he says so. There is nothing to back up what he says about JWs using a false name for God.

"Jesus" is Iesus in the 1611 version of the King James Bible. So why does beameup say "Jesus"?

 

[intojoy]

You are revolting.

Where is your basic humanity and kindness? You're as far from Christ as anyone I've run into yet.


"Happy are [JWs] when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since your reward is great in the heavens." (Matt.5:11,12)

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[intojoy]

Forgot to put jahobo rose on ignore.



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[Ben Masada]

You are right...there is no "J" in Hebrew. So I take it that you don't say "Jesus" when you refer to the Son of God?

You got that right! I never say "Jesus" when I refer to the Son of God. I say "Israel" and I show every one the reference of where you can confirm what I am saying. Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son. So, let My Son go that he may serve Me."

 

[Ben Masada]

Dis is in response to Flamingeee after his post #140

The 70 Week/Years Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27

This prophetic frame of Daniel 9:24-27 ought to be interpreted on a double manner. Both ways starting on the same point in History: The destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians in 586 BCE.

Both facets of the frame belong to two different visions of Daniel. First, the angel is commanded to make Daniel understand about the end of the exile in Babylon, whose 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11 are referred to as 70 weeks in that vision; being one week equal to one year. Historically, the exile lasted 70 years and not 490 years. (Dan. 9:23)

The second vision concerns with events that befall God's People in the days to follow. (Dan. 10:14) The computation of the time on this second vision follows the method of days as years

The 70 week/years of the exile started officially in 586 BCE with the destruction of the Temple. I say officially because Jews were being exiled even before the final destruction. Verse 24 is read as a preface to the frame which starts properly with verse 25.

So, "From the utterance of the 'word' that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt until one who is anointed and a leader, there shall be 7 weeks." Utterance of the word, not commandment or decree as KJV translates. The original in Hebrew brings "Davar" which means prophetic word and not decree or edit. And that prophetic word was uttered by Jeremiah according to chapters 30 and 31, and 33:7,8. And the text does not say after but from. From the utterance of the word.

Jerusalem is used as synonym for Israel, the People, the Community, the nation. It was to be rebuilt as we have from Jeremiah 31:4 and 33:7. And in a letter from Jeremiah to the exiles in Babylon, he explains when and where the rebuilding of Jerusalem should proceed: Right there and then. (Jer. 29:4-10)

"Until one who is anointed and a leader" according to the original and not as KJV brings: "Unto the Messiah, the Prince." That's quite another matter. So, until this anoint and leader, there will be 7 weeks or 49 years. From 586 BCE down through 49 years, we will be in 537 BCE when Cyrus, that anointed and leader, according to Isaiah 45:1-4, tried to effect the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophetic word. (Ezra 1:1-4) But 70 years must be fulfilled according to Daniel 9:2, and in 537, we have only 49 years. How to account for the 21 years left?

It was familiar to Daniel that Judaism, symbolically, would apply protecting angels to various groups of human society or countries. Such angels would be represented not only as guardians of a country respectively, but also to guide them in wars according to Divine will.

So, Persia started the conquest of Babylon in 538 BCE. In 537, Cyrus prematurely, tried to force the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah by proclaiming the end of the exile. However, according to Jeremiah 29:10, "Only after 70 years have elapsed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill for you my promise to bring you back to this place." So, the injunction that 70 years had to be fulfilled of Daniel 9:2 is solved by another vision that Daniel had in chapter 10.

The war between Persia and Babylon was not really over in 537 BCE. The fight continued until 516, as we can see by the words in Daniel 10:13. "The Prince or angel of the Kingdom of Persia stood in my way. (Here speaks the angel of Babylon) for 21 days/years until finally Michael (the angel of Israel) came to help me." It was then that actually, the exile was over and the 70 years had been fulfilled. Remember that Michael had not come until the 70 years were over. Then, neither of the angels or princes of Persia and Babylon stood on each other's way. Israel was finally free to return. The first part of Daniel's prophetic frame ends here.

The second part of that frame starts with Daniel 9:25, and at the same time of the first part: 586 BCE. The text does not say that the 62 weeks proceeds from the 7 weeks mentioned in the same verse. It simply says that "During 62 weeks it shall be rebuilt." Let's not forget that what is to be rebuilt since the beginning of the exile is the nation of Israel, whose process the author extends to his time. In times of affliction because of the captivity and difficulties to resettle the Land. Physically, Jerusalem, the city, or the walls, or the Temple, did not take so long to be rebuilt. In fact, the walls of Jerusalem took only 52 literal days, according to Nehemiah 6:15.

So, 62 weeks or 434 years will take us to 152 BCE when the High Priest Onias the Third was murdered. (II Mac. 4:30-38) The text says, "After 62 weeks an anointed shall be cut down when he does not possess the city." The High Priest is an anointed; and how about the statement, "when he does not possess the city?"

During the Hasmonian period, the High Priest would accumulate both the Pristhood and the Kingship offices. Onias the Third did not possess the Government of Israel, which was already at the hands of Antiochus Epiphanes, the leader whose people had come to desecrate the sanctity of the Sanctuary when they put up the horrible abomination. To finish verse 26, we have, "Then the end shall come like a torrent; and till the end there shall be war, the desolation that is decreed." This last sentence of verse 26 refers to the escalation of the war of the Maccabees which culminated with the end of the Hellenistic oppression in Israel.

Having understood about the 62 weeks or 434 years which ended in 152 BCE with the beginning of the Antiocus persecutions of the Jewish People, triggered by the assassination of the High Priest Onias the Third, we now proceed with the description of the events of that one week or 7 years intercepted half-way by the abolition of sacrifices and oblations. In verse 27 we see that for one week or 7 years, he shall make a covenant with the many. This week starts right after the 62 weeks or 152 BCE.

So, the leader of that people who had come to desecrate the Sanctuary succeeded to make a covenant with the majority of Jews, because Israel was in fact in danger of becoming totally Hellenistic. (I Mac. 1:43) The upper class had practically adopted the Greek customs and style of life. Those who had not bowed to Baal would be the ones to bring the decreed ruin upon the terror. They were the Maccabees.

The Country was in a literal desolation during that week or 7 years. Those who would not submit to the deliberations of Antiocus were constantly on the run, driving into hiding, wherever places of refuge they could find. (I Mac. 1:36-53; II Mac. 5:11-20)

Roughly after three years, in 148 BCE, the horrible abomination was erected upon the altar of holocausts, besides all the pagan altars built in the surrounding cities of Judah; and the sacrifices and oblations were abolished. (I Mac. 1:45,54)

During that week or 7 years, chaos had fallen upon Israel. Especially Jerusalem was completely ravaged. Massacres of young and old was the order of the day. One occasion, in the span of three days "80,000 were lost; 40,000 met violent death, and the same number were sold into slavery." (II Mac. 5:13,14) At the end of that week, those who later became known as the Maccabees, who remained loyal to the Covenant, took strong action despite all odds. (Dan. 11:32)

"A time, times, and a half," literally, a year, two years and a half year, had also to be fulfilled according to Daniel 12:7. These are all references to that same week of Daniel 9:27. All to be counted from the day the horrible abomination was set up on the altar of holocausts till 145 when the altar was restored and the Temple rededicated. In a word Hanukkah.

The reference to the blessing on those who, patiently persevered until 1,335 days, means survival during that week of human devastation to see again the nation of Israel in full fledge. In fact, the restoration began in 145 BCE with the reconsecration of the Temple. (I Mac. 4:52,54)

The difference between 1,290 and 1,335 can be taken in terms of a year/day just to use commonsense. Therefore, 45 years from 145 BCE will take us to 100 BCE, roughly the time when the authors of both books of Maccabees and Daniel finished writing them. That was just about after the death of John Hircanus in 104 BCE, who had been ruling since 134 BCE.

 

[intojoy]

Too much readin


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[beameup]

Bs"d
If somebody claims to be the messiah, then he has to fulfil the messianic prophecies. If he doesn't do so, then he is a false messiah.

You mean like your Messiah that came 49 years following the Persian King's decree to rebuild Jerusalem?

Refresh our memory again, tell us about the "messianic prophecies" he fulfilled.

 

[beameup]

Too much readin


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I guess 70 X 7 is much too complicated for the Jew to figure out.

 

[steko]

I guess 70 X 7 is much too complicated for the Jew to figure out.

Some Jews get it...thank GOD.

 

[Flaminggg]

I agree it is a period of time. But can you explain where you get the "Day of the Lord" from the "final week of years" of Daniel 9?

Two Generations Are Compared
God Introduces the figure of 430: Adam 930 - Noah 500 = 430 (Hebrews in Egypt)
God Introduces the figure of 60: Moses 600,000 - the factor of Revelation = 60
(430 + 60 = 490)

60 or 36 and 24 (Six Hundred, then Threescore and Six, can be viewed as the Length of the Final Day of the Lord, or 36 years)

36 Years = Solstice Precessional Alignment of 1980, 1998, 2012, 2016 ... The Final "Week of Years" = 36 Years to bring us to the "Day of the Lord"/Star Wormwood.

GENESIS 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls [were] threescore and six;
GENESIS 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, [were] two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, [were] threescore and ten.

70 Weeks of Daniel 9, with Each Week rated at 36 Years ... 36 Years to mark the "Final Week of Years". That is a reasonable interpretation the gospel appears to support.

Both facets of the frame belong to two different visions of Daniel. First, the angel is commanded to make Daniel understand about the end of the exile in Babylon, whose 70 years of Jeremiah 25:11 are referred to as 70 weeks in that vision; being one week equal to one year. Historically, the exile lasted 70 years and not 490 years. (Dan. 9:23)

The second vision concerns with events that befall God's People in the days to follow. (Dan. 10:14) The computation of the time on this second vision follows the method of days as years

(144,000 of Joseph is not exercised to complete a sequence of 70 measures of the Lord's Body, until we approach the events of revelation. ... ... ... ... Essentially, God calls someone other than Jesus, the "Messiah", which is to say "The Messiah the Prince" (to denote the equal potential the gospel affords), this can only be a reference to the 144,000 of Joseph ... ... ... ... this could not of happened at any point prior in the gospel's program until we reach the very end of time)

70 Years in reference to Joseph is a Logical Statement, see below:

GENESIS 46:27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, [were] two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, [were] threescore and ten.
MARK 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing (Joseph).

When God introduced the Rod of Joseph/Staff/Antichrist to Moses, it was a declaration that a final cycle would begin towards the 70 measures of Joseph, that is rated when the Gospel's Program is completed following the Events of Revelation. ...................... Jesus clarified this statement with the Genealogy of Luke's 70 Generations, with divisions of Joseph the Blessing at the 62nd, 70th (Jesus as the Head of Joseph), and so on. 70 Generations, which is to say 70 Years of Jeremiah's reckoning about Babylon. The argument is very specific, and very limited to satisfaction in the New Testament Era of Joseph only, and in satisfaction of the Events of Revelation only. Love and Blessings. (By all Accounts the Solstice Precessional Alignment should read the June Solstice, that is what happens when God invalidates the "Three Days of Darkness", as we've discussed, the level of lethal force against the Antichrist is good, we need to keep this going).

 

[intojoy]

I'm gonna be forced to put nigg on ignore


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[Elia]

I guess 70 X 7 is much too complicated for the Jew to figure out.

Bs"d

But I do understand that 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1. That's where almost all the Christians go wrong.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

I'm gonna be forced to put nigg on ignore


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Bs"d

Thank God for the ignore option!

"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23

 

[Elia]

70 X 7 = 490
The Jewish leaders of Israel in the 1st century must have been totally ignorant, since they couldn't multiply 7X70.

However, according to you, "the Messiah" came in 408 B.C.
What is his name, and what is he doing?

Bs"d

Where do I say that the messiah came in 408 before??

BTW, no resurrection = no judgment
Jews say there in no resurrection.

"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23

 

[Elia]

Some Jews get it...thank GOD.

Bs"d

I get it just fine, see here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/daniel9


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

Jesus fulfilled EVERY messianic prophecy

Bs"d

Sure, except for the following:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Elia]

You mean like your Messiah that came 49 years following the Persian King's decree to rebuild Jerusalem?

Refresh our memory again, tell us about the "messianic prophecies" he fulfilled.

Bs"d

Again; there is no "decree" to be found in Daniel 9. Also no "edict".

And a messiah came 49 years after the outgoing of the word to rebuild Jerusalem, but he was not THE messiah, and therefore he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies.

"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23