What ever happened to...

Bright Raven

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That verse does not state that we can go to heaven by 'taking refuge in him' John 14:6 Still stands:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Being credited as rightousness is again not the same as 'getting into heaven:

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

That is right it was Jesus who defeated Satan not anyone who came before Him.

John 10:8
All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

Job was written before Moses' Torah. That is a lie straight from Satan, no one was saved before the cross, even with the caveat.Again a lie. Judas went to hell and so would have Peter if he died before knowing the power of Christ death that was made plain to Him when he saw the resurrected Jesus.I doubt that, only God knows the full 'picture'.Only faith in God's Son will save. The Jews believe in the same God but they are going to hell. At least that bit is true but this guy is adding works as a way to salvation. Wrong!

I'm not going to argue with you. You have the audacity to question the salvation of such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David et al? The Old Testament Saints did not have Christ as the way but they had faith. It is obvious that God accepted those who had faith in Him. The way through Christ was not available to them but it is obvious that they were accepted by God.
 

The Barbarian

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Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
 

john w

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If Jesus is the only way to Heaven:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Then where did all the people who lived before Jesus' death and all the people who had never heard the Good News go?

After all it was not there fault they didn't hear the Good News. So where did they go Heaven or Hell?

And if they went to Hell is this fair? And why is it fair?

Progressive revelation, i.e., the content of faith required to be believed progressively changed-it is not that complicated. That is, "taking God" at His word..... Prime examples-The Chapter 11 Hebrews "Faith Hall of Fame"....

Hebrews 11 KJV
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Noah merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV



Hebrews 11 KJV
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Abraham merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV

(Confirmed by:


Romans 4:3 KJV For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Genesis 12 KJV
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.)




Hebrews 11 KJV
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


The harlot Rahab merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV


Thus:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lieved-in-Mt-John-prior-to-the-dbr&highlight=
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I'm not going to argue with you. You have the audacity to question the salvation of such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David et al? The Old Testament Saints did not have Christ as the way but they had faith. It is obvious that God accepted those who had faith in Him. The way through Christ was not available to them but it is obvious that they were accepted by God.

Show one verse that supports your theory, I have a battery of verse to shoot down any you may come up with. At the moment you are saying that Jesus' death was for nothing as we can work our way to heaven and as such dismiss Jesus as your saviour. Did Jesus die for you or not?
 

Bright Raven

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Show one verse that supports your theory, I have a battery of verse to shoot down any you may come up with. At the moment you are saying that Jesus' death was for nothing as we can work our way to heaven and as such dismiss Jesus as your saviour. Did Jesus die for you or not?
Hebrews 11:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Did the Old Testament Saints have faith? Yes! Then they pleased God. Would God withhold the kingdom from those who pleased Him? No!
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Progressive revelation, i.e., the content of faith required to be believed progressively changed-it is not that complicated. That is, "taking God" at His word..... Prime examples-The Chapter 11 Hebrews "Faith Hall of Fame"....

Hebrews 11 KJV
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Noah merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV
Noah's faith saved him and his family from dying in the flood, there's no mention that it also took him to heaven.
Hebrews 11 KJV
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Abraham merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV

(Confirmed by:


Romans 4:3 KJV For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Genesis 12 KJV
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.)
God kept His promises and Abrams descendant got the land of Canaan and became a great peoples but no where did God say Abram would go to Heaven. Even Abram's faith was only credited to him AS righteousness and not that he was right righteous per-say so that he went to Heaven.
Hebrews 11 KJV
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


The harlot Rahab merely believed what God told him, "took Him at His word," and acted....No indication that he was ever told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the dbr, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV
Rahab's belief only saved her from being killed with all the others but it did not get her entry into heaven.

You seem to be believing in a works based religion that is not of Christ and as such you dismiss Christ's death as payment for you sins. Don't you believe Jesus died for you?
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Hebrews 11:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Did the Old Testament Saints have faith? Yes! Then they pleased God. Would God withhold the kingdom from those who pleased Him? No!

Read it plainly. It says that faith in God pleases God because it show a person believes He exists. There is nothing there that say faith in God will get you into heaven. The Jews believe in the same God as the Christians but they are all going to Hell. It is Jesus who you need to believe in order to go to Heaven. Deny that and you have condemned yourself:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life.

Basics man, basic!
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
You are actually sort of not with it, read it;
No ,it you who's not with it and there is a rule about long posts but I will reply.
Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)

Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Abram's faith being credited as righteousness is not the same as Abram be righteous per-say and there is not one verse that says Abram went to Heaven but there are several where Jesus Himself said he was in Hell:

Luke 16
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”


And that is Hell rather than Heaven, it is the Paradise side of Hell that Jesus went to after his death and before his resurrection that is spoken of in Peter:

1 Peter 3:19
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Check this out.
How Were People Saved Before Jesus Came in the Flesh?

Apologetics

by Steve Fazekas on May 10, 2011
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Since the Gospel message is based on the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ, many have wondered how people who lived prior to the Incarnation of Christ could have been saved.

Science Confirms The Bible Shop Now
Introduction
Since the Gospel message is based on the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1–4), many have wondered how people who lived prior to the Incarnation of Christ could have been saved. In Hebrews 11, sometimes known as the “gallery of faith” or the “faith hall of fame,” we have a sampling of Old Testament saints whose lives pleased God. These heroes of the faith provide for us, even in these latter days, example after example of how to both live and die in times that are anything but receptive to the God of the Bible.

Yet, a question continues to be raised over the faith of these heroes. Who or what was the source of the salvation and the object of the faith of men like Abel and Enoch? How did Joshua and Jeremiah exercise saving faith? How did redemption touch the lives of Ruth and Rahab?

Personal salvation by grace through faith in the atoning work of Christ on the Cross may not have been as clear at the time of Noah as it is to us today. The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world came to the nation of Israel approximately four hundred years after the Old Testament canon was closed. How then could there be a clear object of faith if the object had not yet appeared?

Abraham Was Saved by Grace Through Faith
The Apostle Paul dealt with an issue in Romans 4 that helps us answer this important question. He used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith. While addressing those who thought they could save themselves by adhering to the Law of Moses, Paul made a brilliant argument.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness . . . . Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. . . . Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:1–5, 9–10, 16)

To demonstrate his point that salvation comes through faith instead of works, Paul referred to Abraham, the forefather of the Jewish people. He cited Genesis 15:6, which reveals that Abram (Abraham) “believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” Circumcision was not introduced to Abraham and his descendants until Genesis 17—more than 10 years later.
Dealt with above.
Gospel Theme in the Old Testament
The Old Testament sets forth a gospel theme that people were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

Several texts from the New Testament illustrate this premise.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12, emphasis added)
This text reveals some important ideas. The “prophets . . . who prophesied” longed for the arrival of an era of grace. The “Spirit of Christ” within them was filling them with this great desire, witnessing through them and to them in advance of the work of Christ.

A CHRIST-LED, SPIRIT-GIVEN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS GOSPEL THEME WAS THE CORE OF THE PROPHETIC MESSAGE.
The prophetic message was often a gospel message since it told of the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. The Spirit of Christ witnessed in advance about the sufferings and glories of Christ. The text indicates the prophets studied their own utterances and writings to plumb their depths. Yet according to this text, a Christ-led, Spirit-given understanding of this gospel theme was the core of the prophetic message.

The New Testament serves as the inspired commentary on the Old Testament, and it is an incredible blessing to have this in our hands. However, even before the completion of the New Testament, the Old Testament served as the Scripture for Israel, and it contained a gospel theme concerning the coming, sufferings, and glory of Messiah.

The second text underscoring the gospel theme of the Old Testament was spoken by Jesus Himself.

Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25–27)
Here, Jesus spoke to a pair of His followers on the road to Emmaus. Notice the extent of His teaching. He began with Moses and the Prophets and opened to them in all the Scriptures the things pertaining to Himself, that is, His sufferings and His glory.

Later in the same chapter, Jesus spoke of His presence in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)
This text is loaded with gospel significance given by Jesus to His disciples. He referenced His presence in the Law of Moses, presumably the Pentateuch. He claimed the Prophets testified about Him. He also showed that He could be found in the Psalms. Then Jesus collected these three areas and predicated them under one title—“the Scriptures.” Again, the gospel significance of Old Testament content is remarkable. Central to the Lord’s teaching about Himself in the Scriptures was the necessity of His suffering, His Resurrection, and His call to preach repentance for the remission of sins.

One final text illustrates the gospel theme found in the Old Testament, and it also spoke of things that took place before the Incarnation of Jesus upon this earth.

But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:18–24)
The Apostle Peter preached from Solomon’s Porch and called for the people to repent. He reminded the listening crowd that the suffering, Resurrection, and glory of the Messiah have been the major theme of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach that Jesus is its central theme. The primary message of the Bible is about His suffering, death, Resurrection, and glory.
nothing there about going to heaven just because they had faith, even if it was credited to them as righteousness.
Conclusion
So were there multiple ways of salvation prior to the coming of Jesus in space and time to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind? The answer must be a resounding “No.” Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.
No, It Jesus or nothing:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

John 10:8
All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.


Genesis 3:15 promised that Someone would come to clear up the sin problem created by our first father, Adam. As the Seed of the woman, He would be the one to battle and defeat the serpent. Even Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous (Hebrews 11:4).

Thus, saturating all of Scripture, there is a gospel theme that showcases the suffering, Resurrection, and glory of the promised Savior, Jesus Christ. He is the central object of our faith and the fulfillment of all that the faithful who have preceded us down through the ages had believed in.

You have been deceived by another gospel.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] [MENTION=1851]john w[/MENTION] [MENTION=92]The Barbarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=7959]WizardofOz[/MENTION] [MENTION=12045]jamie[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] [MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION]

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Even the most righteous acts of the most righteous person is to God but rags with a woman's period on them.

John 10:8
All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

Jesus tell it like it is, even the most honoured of the Old testament 'holy' people are but thieves and robbers compared to Jesus.

Isaiah 55:9
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

There is no comparison between man and God and Jesus is God. Without Jesus all are lost.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Bump for [MENTION=19670]WatchmanOnTheWall[/MENTION]

As you can see in post #51 [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] [MENTION=1851]john w[/MENTION] [MENTION=92]The Barbarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=12045]jamie[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] [MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] won't dare touch it because there lack of Biblical knowledge and week faith won't allow them to explore what the answer might even be for fear that they might find out something is fundamentally wrong with their theologies.

What about you? How is you faith? And what is it based on?
 

patrick jane

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You asked about those who died before Jesus lived. Why are you bringing up Hitler?

So what about those who died before Jesus was born?
Revelation 20 - KJV - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

patrick jane

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As you can see in post #51 @Bright Raven @john w @The Barbarian @jamie @meshak @patrick jane won't dare touch it because there lack of Biblical knowledge and week faith won't allow them to explore what the answer might even be for fear that they might find out something is fundamentally wrong with their theologies.

What about you? How is you faith? And what is it based on?
Pipe down, you false prophet. You don't know enough about the Bible to stop predicting the return of Jesus Christ. :rotfl:
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
As you can see in post #51 [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] [MENTION=1851]john w[/MENTION] [MENTION=92]The Barbarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=12045]jamie[/MENTION] [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] [MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] won't dare touch it because there lack of Biblical knowledge and week faith won't allow them to explore what the answer might even be for fear that they might find out something is fundamentally wrong with their theologies.

What about you? How is you faith? And what is it based on?
From Gotquestions.org

The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Pipe down, you false prophet. You don't know enough about the Bible to stop predicting the return of Jesus Christ. :rotfl:

I know too much but the problem is communicating that information in a way that people of lower intelligence like yourself can understand. As I say face to face is much easier as the written word alone only gives about 5% of the amount of information compared to face to face.
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
From Gotquestions.org

The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).
Correct.
The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26).
Correct.
The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.
Not quite correct.
Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).
Correct.
On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9).
Correct.
There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.
Basically an incorrect assumption.
 
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