Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

Tico

New member
No. Lots of people received measures of the Spirit that were not Christian baptized: all the O.T. Prophets, the twelve Luke 9 , the 72 Luke 10, and John 20:22 (not sure who all).

Then please don't use Acts to defend your point of view.


That is interesting, so if you have a faith like those of the first century you can raise the dead?
To what extent have you seen the measure lately?
I have seen some individuals I consider extremely Spiritual or Spirit filled but they are not healing people with their shadow. Do we or can we have apostles today?
From Acts 8: 18 said Simon saw the miraculous level of the Holy Spirit coming with the laying on of the Apostles hands.

Reread Romans 12. It specifies which gifts we are talking about.
.


We both can not take this at face value, my interpretation is that the visual outward sign of the Holy Spirit (a different measure) came with the laying on of the Apostle hands Acts 8 and Acts 19 or by the Spirit breathing on them. The reason it would be referred to as just “receiving the Spirit” is the fact it was visual and outward. The laying on of the Apostles hands to receive the Spirit is not called Baptism. These two situations sound just alike with laying on to receive the miraculous power of the Spirit coming after they were baptized. What scripture words are you using to show they are totally different steps?

I haven't referenced Acts 8 nor 19 in support of my position.



I do not understand what you are saying here?

The baptism into Moses was figurative. Moses was dead at that moment. The baptism of John was real.





One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.

Do you believe any of the Ephesians at the time of Paul’s letter had been water baptized?

Sure, but there weren't being baptized when it was written because there was only one baptism at that historical point.



I do not interpret it that way, so we might be both prejudice in our interpretations.

That's fair.

I am just talking about those in Ephesus at the time of the letter. How would they have understood “one baptism”. If some there had experienced two baptisms then it would be confusing. Hebrew’s talks about meatier matter being lessons on Baptisms plural, so what might that be?

The baptism in or by the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) by whom they were sealed (Eph. 1:13-14).



You are right I was going from memory it was two days and not three: John 4: 39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.
Does two day instead of three make a difference in the message?

I'm sorry, I forgot the point. I'm not being sarcastic, I just really forgot. Thanks.

Are there two kingdoms or is it the message that is divided?

How many gospels are there actively working in the NT? Gal. 2:7-9 says 2.

Tico said:
Jesus did baptize--John 3:26.
That is exactly what John’s disciples said and the Pharisees heard, but John who was right there with Jesus said: John 4:1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Thanks for correcting me. It doesn't do much to counter my position, however.


Paul says in 1 Cor. 1: 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—
You use that as your support for not Baptizing, but he is not making any distinction between baptizing Jews or gentiles. Paul was thankful he did not baptize more people 1 Cor 1: 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, ( and later Stephanas and Household and many be some others). That says He could have but was glade he did not. You are telling me, there was a righteous and good reason to baptize Jewish Christians at this time, so why did Paul feel it was good not to baptize more Jew Christians?

He goes on to say that he was not called to baptize, but to preach the cross.
 

thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
Tico said:
Laq...,

Did or did not Jesus state (more than once) that He came for the lost sheep of Israel?


Jesus’ conversations are recorded to many, in Scripture, and you are not taking his command to some to sell everything, leave all, and follow Him as a doctrine you follow -and so you are in error to take conversations at two, only, times that are in exact opposite to Bible Truth and doctrine for all nations, as revealed in all Scripture and make a private sect’s creed of those two out of context verses, which are not related.


You are out of context as I showed you in my post, on Matthew 10, which reports the first evangelism mission Jesus sent His disciples out on, for they then went “By the Way of the Gentiles and through Samaria cities and gave Living Water to Samaritans =Gentiles, then to the multitudes in The Way of the Gentiles He ministered Living Water, who “Glorified the God of Israel”;
then the Demoniac of the Gentile Gaderenes was given His Deliverance, and His mission to the Ten Cities was His own initiating, to minister Living Water to the Gentiles -who asked Him to leave out of fear.


Then you are out of context on the Syro-Phoenicain Canaanite woman to whom Jesus Christ personally ministered, as was reported in Scripture.
In the case of that Canaaite woman, Jesus did not state that He was exclusively sent to the lost sheep of Israel, for if so, all Scripture would be a lie, from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22:17; and the wise men would not have sought Him, who was to be the Light to the Gentiles. The negative in the reply He gave is rather a declaration that He is not sent “only to” the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as all Scripture proves He is sent as the Light to the Gentiles and as all the Gospels report His ministering to the Gentiles and commanding all Gentiles to repent and to obey all He taught His Apostles, and to be water baptized, until the end of the Age; which age will end when all the wicked are removed from the earth at the end of the Tribulation, when He returns to set up His Kingdom of heaven on earth for the Millennial reign, when the Father’s will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, and His kingdom comes -to earth!


Context of all Scripture on Regeneration [redemption back as sons of God in the Seed of the Woman (Zion above), for all Adamkind as proclaimed/foretold in Genesis 3:15] is Jews first, Gentiles last, called into the Life/Name/Spirit of the Firstborn, Beloved, Living, Only Begotten Son of Man/Son of God.



First, the laborers are called to partake of the harvest in which they labored as namesake keepers of the Living Oracles:

Last, Gentiles, the whosoever will’s, are called to partake of the harvest in which they did not labor -freely.

How many times did He state that He came as the Light to the Gentiles [last]? -From Genesis to Revelation?

In Deuteronomy Gentiles are declared as going to be made ‘a nation of redeemed Believers who are not a people’ who will anger the lost rebels of Israel, who will gnash their teeth when they see Gentiles come from the east and west to sit down with the patriarchs in the kingdom of heaven, and those rebels cast into outer darkness, gnashing their teeth in anger at what they rejected, which was first offered to them.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Why did He state that the “last [Gentiles] shall be first, and the first [elect namesake nation =Israel] last? -What is He speaking of? -Can you tell?

Did the Light to the Gentiles come?
Did He come to bring the Gentiles to the Father, for the Glory?


Isa 49:1 ¶ Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: [yet] surely my judgment [is] with the LORD, and my work with my God.
And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
a 49:8 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.
Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.


Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

At Jesus’ birth, the angels proclaimed Grace! Grace! as the Head Stone of the Corner was brought forth! and they proclaimed the Gospel [Jesus coming in flesh as Kinsman is the Gospel =Good News] to all nations:
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all “nations***”.
…Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.


Luke 2:25 -32 shows the Truth : Jesus is born as the Light to “Revelation the Gentiles”…

Simeon Sees God's Salvation
25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:
29 "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,

And the glory of Your people Israel."
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Baptism was done away sometime after God raised up the Apostle Paul and sent him to go to the Gentiles.

There seems to be a lot of Christians who don’t understand the dispensational significance of the mystery that God revealed to Paul. An understanding of the mystery untangles the confusion.

I’m not going to copy them and put them on the forum this time, but please look at Eph 2:14-18; 3:1-9; Col 1:18-27; 2:13-17,20-23.

The mystery as given to Paul in these verses shows two important things for baptism.

In the body of Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile but a new creation. Eph 2:14-16; 2 Co 5:17; Gal 6:15.

The law God gave to Israel was abolished. Eph 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Col 2:13-17 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

That means God's program with Israel is now set aside.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
If we want to understand baptism and its relationship to us, we must understand baptism and its relationship to Israel.

Its history is very important.

This water rite was spelled out for Israel under the law.
Num 19:9,10,20 the ashes of the heifer . . . for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 . . . It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel. . . . 20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly."

Further, God told Israel in Ezek 36:24-27 that He would baptize them with water, cleanse them from all their filthiness and establish the new covenant with them.
Ezek 36:24-27 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Therefore, when John the Baptist came he baptized great crowds for the Lord from all the tribes (Mat. 3:5,6), not just from the tribe of Levi.

Because John was baptizing with authority, the whole nation of Israel went out to him. They were expecting the Messiah (Lk. 3:15).

Remember, God had promised in Ezek 36 to sprinkle them with water to make them clean.

John was preaching that his baptism was for the remission of sins (Mat. 3:1-6; Lk. 3:3,8).

I believe by his baptism, John was preparing them to be a kingdom of priests.

That's why they were called a royal priesthood by Peter in 1 Pet 2:5,9, in fulfillment of Ex 19:5,6.

Therefore, we see that water baptism was mandated for Israel in Numbers 19.
This baptism, then, would result in a whole nation of priests. 1 Pet 2:5,9.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Tico

New member
thelaqachisnext,

Friend, please read the entirety of the thread. I have addressed these issues at some length.

The summary (the substance of which you will find in the thread at length) is that Jesus came to Israel, His people. His people were to be a nation of priests in order to be a light to the gentiles. Those gentiles who humbled themselves recognizing Israel as the font of salvation entered into a relationship with God. Israel rejected its risen Messiah. God went to the gentiles with the gospel of the grace of God.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Water baptism accompanied true repentance displayed by works. Mat 3:8; Lk 3:8.
At that time, water baptism resulted in the forgiveness of sins (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3).

Water baptism was associated with the Messianic kingdom promised to Israel.
Ezek 36:24-32 “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

After Christ's ascension and Pentecost, we find that water baptism was still essential for salvation.

Why?

God was still dealing with Israel as His nation.

Therefore, water baptism continued after Pentecost because God was offering the promised kingdom to Israel Acts 3:19-26 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 ‘And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

If Israel repented, God would send Christ back Acts 3:20 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before.

It was because God was still dealing with Israel, that water baptism was still necessary for salvation.

We must always remember that Acts 2:38 demanded water baptism for the remission of sins. "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

But most important of all, we see from Heb 9:10 that water baptism would be imposed on Israel until the time of reformation. That's when Christ would set up the kingdom for Israel (Acts 1:6; 3:21).
Heb 9:10 "concerned only with foods and drinks, various baptisms (Greek - baptismois), and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation."

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
The next thing we see was the added dimension of water baptism. Now, there were 2 baptisms. After a Jew received water baptism, he would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This was the first time that there were two baptisms, water baptism first and then Holy Spirit baptism.

Sometime after that, the dispensational turning point came.
The Apostle Paul got saved in Acts 9. He was commissioned by the ascended lord Jesus Christ to be the Apostle of the Gentiles.

God also showed Peter there was a dispensational change after Paul got saved.

God gave Peter a vision (Acts 10:9-17). When Israel became God's chosen people, He made animals clean and unclean to them (Lev. 20:22-26). Peter's vision showed there were no more clean and unclean animals for Israel. By this vision, He showed Peter that Israel was no longer His chosen people.

However, He did not show him the mystery and its ramifications which He would reveal to Paul. He also did not show Peter what the new method of salvation would be. That's why Peter preached the same message Christ had given him from the beginning, the circumcision gospel.

Acts 10:34-37 "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. (Is that how we are saved today?) 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ; He is Lord of all; 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached".

This was the gospel of faith plus works and endurance :WA: for salvation which Christ taught while on earth (Mat 24:13,14; John 15:1-8).

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 
Last edited:

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
After Paul’s conversion when God called him to be His apostle to the Gentiles, the Holy Spirit showed that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation.

Because the body of Christ started with Paul's salvation, God had a new plan.

How did the Holy Spirit show this new plan?

The Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word while Peter was still preaching, before they were baptized (Acts 10:44,45).

The Holy Spirit's work here would convince the circumcision believers.
God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles.

Remember, at Paul's conversion in Acts 9, Paul was sent to the Gentiles.

The two baptisms of Acts 2:38 were reversed for the first time. Water baptism was performed after Holy Spirit baptism.

Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation.

Water baptism became secondary for the first time.

We're not even sure that God wanted these new Christians water baptized.

Peter did a number of things here for the simple reason that the Lord had previously commanded them.

Why did these changes take place?

Because Paul was converted, given a new stewardship called the Dispensation of the Mystery, and a new gospel, the Uncircumcision Gospel.

Paul was sent out on his missionary journeys. On these journeys we find that he baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, Stephanus' household, Lydia and her household, and the jailor and his household.

Why did he baptize these people? We don't know for sure. But it seems that because Ananias had commanded him to be baptized, he carried on the practice until God told him not to. So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while.

Soon it was revealed to Paul that water baptism was not part of his commission 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

After that, Paul no longer baptized.

But we must remember that it definitely was part of the circumcision apostles' commission (Mat 28:18-20; Mk 16:15-18).

When Paul wrote that he was not sent to baptize, he also was inspired to write, “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body” (1 Co 12:13).

According to Col 2:11,12 we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual, "made without hands," water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, "through the faith of the operation of God."

Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 when Christ stood in judgment at the stoning of Stephen (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28; Isa. 3:13).

Part of Paul's ministry had been to show Israel that they had been set aside.

Now, God pronounced for the final time through Paul in Acts 28:28 that Israel had been set aside.

This happened when Paul made his inspired judicial decree quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. The baptisms imposed on Israel were set aside until God would be dealing with Israel again in the tribulation. For instance, baptism will be necessary for salvation when Peter's epistles are again in use in the tribulation period.
1 Pet. 3:18-21 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now there is one baptism.

After his Acts 28:28 decree, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote Eph 4:4,5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

One baptism?

If there is only one baptism, which one is it?

Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being.

Now there is only one program. So, today there is one baptism by which we, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ.

That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

bling

Member
Tico said:
Then please don't use Acts to defend your point of view.




Reread Romans 12. It specifies which gifts we are talking about.
.




I haven't referenced Acts 8 nor 19 in support of my position.





The baptism into Moses was figurative. Moses was dead at that moment. The baptism of John was real.







Sure, but there weren't being baptized when it was written because there was only one baptism at that historical point.





That's fair.



The baptism in or by the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) by whom they were sealed (Eph. 1:13-14).





I'm sorry, I forgot the point. I'm not being sarcastic, I just really forgot. Thanks.



How many gospels are there actively working in the NT? Gal. 2:7-9 says 2.



Thanks for correcting me. It doesn't do much to counter my position, however.




He goes on to say that he was not called to baptize, but to preach the cross.

Gal. 2:6-10 does not say they were preaching different gospels just too different main groups. Paul always went to where the Jews were meeting first in every new town he went to.

I think you have done a good job of presenting your side of the argument. I think I’ve shown that a reasonable person can review and consider all the scripture involved specifically on the subject and draw a logical different conclusion from alternative interpretations.

There are some general issues I have with the whole Mid Acts Dispensation. I see everything changing with the cross. The Law was nailed to the cross. Yes there was a transition period and Jewish Christians today can be Christian Jews (Christian first). The law did its job. God would have realized all or even most of the Jews would not follow Christianity, when have they in the past for any length of time and what did it take to create that situation? God’s people after the cross were to be in the world separated by their love and not by food and hygiene requirements. The Samarians were already accepting Christ’s teaching before Christ went to the cross and that would not have happened if He had told them to become good Jews first (I knew we do not have the whole lesson, but He did say: John 4: 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Jesus taught the Samaritans that worship would in time not be in Jerusalem or on their mountain, which soon did happen. We are in that age of the pleasing worshipping in Spirit and truth. If Jesus had been ushering in the Jewish Christian dispensation then He would have had to tell them: “They needed to worship as Jews in Jerusalem and the Cross would not change that.”

I would enjoy your comments on this.
 

thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
Tico said:
thelaqachisnext,

Friend, please read the entirety of the thread. I have addressed these issues at some length.

The summary (the substance of which you will find in the thread at length) is that Jesus came to Israel, His people. His people were to be a nation of priests in order to be a light to the gentiles. Those gentiles who humbled themselves recognizing Israel as the font of salvation entered into a relationship with God. Israel rejected its risen Messiah. God went to the gentiles with the gospel of the grace of God.

You have no Scripture response to the things I addressed. This is glaringly obvious is it not, that you cannot address a Scriptural challenge? -I answered you, why cannot you answer me?


I used Scripture to show that you are out of context. I spoke personally and directly to the issue you out forth as proof texts for your doctrine. I have written much with many proofs from the Word on the direct statements showing the contradiction.
How is it that you can just ignore the context and the Scriptures which contradict your MAD doctrine and go on blithely as if the Word of God has no importance in the matter?

The summary of the Scripture teaching is that Israel is the Name of the New Man, and Abram was taken from the Gentiles for the Creator to "Make a Name for Himself" to indwell as His house not made with hands, "human kind"; and that some of those called into Israel, the New Man name, were cut off, but all Gentiles are "invited" [called into "Life"] so that the Father's "House not made with hands" will be filled.

There is only One Son of God of the human kind, and one Name, and One Way, and Gentiles are invited into the Name of the Son of God which the natural seed of Jacob had, as their birthright, and the Adoption pertains to Israel to which Name of the Mighty God "ElEloheIsrael", we Gentiles are joined into as sons of God, by faith; but some got cut off, as branches in the "Plant of Righteousnes" [the New Man], and we who are Gentiles who are born again are graft into the commionwealth of Israel, by faith, as the New Man is come and the door is open for all to come into the Name -while it is called 'Today", the Day of Salvation for all born in the old man, Adam.
 

bling

Member
thelaqachisnext said:
You have no Scripture response to the things I addressed. This is glaringly obvious is it not, that you cannot address a Scriptural challenge? -I answered you, why cannot you answer me?


I used Scripture to show that you are out of context. I spoke personally and directly to the issue you out forth as proof texts for your doctrine. I have written much with many proofs from the Word on the direct statements showing the contradiction.
How is it that you can just ignore the context and the Scriptures which contradict your MAD doctrine and go on blithely as if the Word of God has no importance in the matter?

The summary of the Scripture teaching is that Israel is the Name of the New Man, and Abram was taken from the Gentiles for the Creator to "Make a Name for Himself" to indwell as His house not made with hands, "human kind"; and that some of those called into Israel, the New Man name, were cut off, but all Gentiles are "invited" [called into "Life"] so that the Father's "House not made with hands" will be filled.

There is only One Son of God of the human kind, and one Name, and One Way, and Gentiles are invited into the Name of the Son of God which the natural seed of Jacob had, as their birthright, and the Adoption pertains to Israel to which Name of the Mighty God "ElEloheIsrael", we Gentiles are joined into as sons of God, by faith; but some got cut off, as branches in the "Plant of Righteousnes" [the New Man], and we who are Gentiles who are born again are graft into the commionwealth of Israel, by faith, as the New Man is come and the door is open for all to come into the Name -while it is called 'Today", the Day of Salvation for all born in the old man, Adam.
You did a good job, i would like to here Tico's responce.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Tico said:
Laq...,

Did or did not Jesus state (more than once) that He came for the lost sheep of Israel?


He did, but not exclusively. Paul also went to the Jews first before he changed course to the Gentiles (again, not exclusive, but primary).


Gal. 2:7-9 (Plot proof text) shows that the one gospel was taken to two target audiences by two ministries. Greek master A.T. Robertson will confirm this if you have a problem with the Greek prepositions (even in English, it does not have to imply two different/heteros gospels).

Gal. 1 is talking about the false Judaizer gospel, not a true 'circumcision' gospel that is now false with Paul's conversion?!
 

thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
godrulz said:
He did, but not exclusively. Paul also went to the Jews first before he changed course to the Gentiles (again, not exclusive, but primary).


Gal. 2:7-9 (Plot proof text) shows that the one gospel was taken to two target audiences by two ministries. Greek master A.T. Robertson will confirm this if you have a problem with the Greek prepositions (even in English, it does not have to imply two different/heteros gospels).

Gal. 1 is talking about the false Judaizer gospel, not a true 'circumcision' gospel that is now false with Paul's conversion?!
Godrulz,
He came for the Gentiles and for the lost sheep of the house of Israel -both.
MAD is in gross biblical error to deny the fact of Hs coming for the Gentiles and for the lost sheep of the house of Israel -not all Israel was lost.

The Servant, the Light to the Gentiles


49"Listen, O coastlands, to Me,
And take heed, you peoples from afar!
The Lord has called Me from the womb;
From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp ARROW***;
In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me,
And made Me a polished shaft;
In His quiver He has hidden Me."



3 "And He said to me,
'You are My servant, O Israel,
[
/U]
In whom I will be glorified.'
4 Then I said, 'I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain;
Yet surely my just reward is with the Lord,
And my work with my God.'"


5 "And now the Lord says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is *gathered to Him

(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'
"



The first evangelism trip He sent His chosen Apostles out on without Him was the time He told them to go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and not to go "by the Way of the Gentiles nor into any city of the Samaratans". He did not tell them to not go to Gentiles, but to not go "by the way of the Gentiles nor into any city of the Samaratans".


He did take them to both after they returned from their mission to the 'lost sheep' of Israel.

That was a "targeted command for a target time" -'to the Jew first"; but after they came back, He took them "By the Way of the Gentiles [where He had begun His ministry] and into the Samaritan cities [for through Samaria they must go to go "By the Way of the Gentiles" -staying in one city two days to preach the Gospel of the kingdom of heaven and giving Living Water to the Gentile Samaritans.

He came as a Revelation [to be revealed] "To the Gentiles" but the first called into His kingdom [the natural heirs of the Name of the New Man] will be the last to enter, and the last called into His kingdom will be the first to enter [at the first harvest gathering of the "Gentiles" fullness "come in"] -but MAD doctrine misses that message, also.
That He is come to be the "Revelation" to the Gentiles is part and parcel of His coming; to gather the lost sheep of Israel and the lost seed of all nations back, by His ransom, to be joined to His "One New Man Spirit, for the Glory of the Father to indwell them, as His [Human -New Man] House "not made with hands", in the regeneration.
 

thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
Isaiah
49"Listen, O coastlands, to Me,
And take heed, you peoples from afar!
The Lord has called Me from the womb;
From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp ARROW***;
In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me,
And made Me a polished shaft;
In His quiver He has hidden Me."


3 "And He said to me,
'You are My servant, O Israel,

6 Indeed He says,
'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.
'


Paul also goes to the Gentiles -as Jesus and the disciples did do before the Acceptable Sacrifice ended sin's remembrance in the Holy of Holies and after;

Paul quotes Isaiah;
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The Holy Ghost comes upon Simeon, and he quotes Isaiah;
Luk 2:25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
...
Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to "Revelation" the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
It’s clear that Peter, James and John were given a different gospel than the gospel that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to Paul.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul a new gospel.
Gal 1:11-17 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 [It was a new gospel that, to begin, God gave only to Paul.] For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia [A couple years.], and returned again to Damascus.

Peter & James wrote and showed in their epistles that God inspired them to write, that they had to endure in their faith to the end in order for them to be saved. This circumcision gospel faded away after the transition period when all of the apostles were dead.

Under the Circumcision Gospel there was no security. That’s what it shows us in 2 Peter 2:20,21
2 Pet 2:20,21 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

James 2:20-26 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now, in contrast to the above insecurity passages, the resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul a different gospel that had not been heard of before. Paul in Acts and his epistles had a different gospel.

In the Dispensation of Grace which presents the gospel of grace, we, alone, have security. Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Paul’s gospel was so different from the one that Christ gave to the 12, that Paul had to explain in at the Council of Jerusalem. Gal 2:1-5,7-9 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (This was significant. The Gentiles that Paul had won to the Lord, did not have to be baptized for salvation or be circumcised.) 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

Rom 5:6-9 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

After a person believes in Christ as his Savior in the present Dispensation of Grace, he is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the rapture.

Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets (by Paul) 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8,8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Today, the gospel for the body of Christ is the one God the Son gave to Paul. All Scripture is profitable for us, but all Scripture was not written to us. Much of it was written to the Circumcision.

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Spitfire

New member
Bob Hill said:
Gal 1:11-17 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Couldn't the exact same be said of Peter, James, and John and "their" gospel?
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
The mystery as revealed to Paul and explained to us, shows two important things for this subject.

In the body of Christ which started with the salvation of the Apostle Paul, there is no more emphasis on Jew or Gentile, but instead, a new creation.

That’s what Ephesians 2:14-16 says: For He Himself is our peace, who has made the both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, the enmity, 15 having abolished in His flesh, the law of commandments in decrees, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile the both in one body to God through the cross, after putting to death the enmity by it.

From this we can see that the enmity shown by the law was done away as we became members of the body of Christ. In Col 2:13-16, we can see that the law God gave to Israel was abolished for the body of Christ.

Col 2:13-16 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Spitfire,

Yes! But the gospel that Christ gave to them was different from the gospel He gave to Paul.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
God’s program with Israel in our Dispensation of Grace is now set aside.

If we want to understand baptism and its relationship to us, we must first understand baptism and its relationship to Israel. So if we want to understand God’s view of baptism, its history is very important. This water rite was spelled out for Israel under the law in Numbers 19.
Numbers 19:9,10,17-21 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them. . . . 17 And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave. 19 The clean person shall sprinkle the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, wash his clothes, and bathe in water; and at evening he shall be clean. 20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean. 21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 
Top