Christ, not Paul, was the first to shift from Law to Grace (Jn. 1:17).
Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation
- Thread starter Bob Hill
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Christ, not Paul, was the first to shift from Law to Grace (Jn. 1:17).
Brother John
New member
Of course, I did not mean to imply that Paul or others ushered in grace salvation, but that thru Paul's teaching on the mystery, we get grace living, by he's stewartship we get the despensation of grace. I was merely implying that we can't have the pentatech with penalties like stoneing vs. grace.:BillyBob: Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else get your way.
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Are you a Mid-Acts dispensationalist?
Brother John
New member
I'm learning, anything is possible! Water baptism doesn't make sense to me, to start off with. If you can prove me wrong, I will believe. I don't claim to have all truth. I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not too sure.:chew:
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Zeke
Well-known member
Just go read the passage in Acts where Paul circumcised Timothy before taking him with him on the trip to encourage the Gentile Churches with the letter from the Jerusalem council elders and Apostles there, after Paul and Barnabas and Silas and the others returned from the Jerusalem council where it was decided that the Gentiles were not to come under circumcision and keep Moses. Paul circumcised Timothy with his own hands, after that council decision, and it was no sin, and with Apostolic authority Paul commanded Jews called into the Name to not become uncircumcised and for Gentiles to not become circumcised -which was decided by the council at Jerusalem, and not by Paul, sir.
The Jews, including Paul the Apostle, “kept Moses”, after coming into the Name by “the call”; not as a manner of perfection -which “perfection” is only received for Jew and Gentile in the “Once”, for “all in Adam”, “Accepted Atonement , which was the final offering for “Sin”, which Atonement made an end of the remembrance of sin and kept us from “perfection” since the fall of our firstborn, until the Day of Atonement.
-and all the redeemed of all the earth’s age since the beginning enter into the perfection of spirit by the second birth, from above, and then of body by the regeneration of it’s elements in the resurrection and or translation at the “laqach” of the entire Church/Congregation [His called out people from the beginning of creation], by that “One Atonement’s” “Final and Forever” “Offering“, and “Acceptance“, which was pre-ordained from the beginning of creation because the Creator saw our fall before we fell, and He made us for His glory to indwell and He planned our redemption in the Second Man‘s Name before He made us -so says His Scriptures.
None of the Apostles of the LORD placed any called Gentiles under Moses, and you cannot find one place in the Word where any of them did do so, and MAD doctrine is false to claim they did do so, for that is what the Jerusalem Council met together to decide the issue of, because of the Judaisers among them who made trouble for the called Gentiles.
And Paul commanded, with Apostolic authority, the Gentiles he wrote to, to do good works much more than James ever spoke of the works of faith. And if you claim to follow Paul the Apostle then, among other things, you should stop your dissembling about his truth of calling for the Believers to maintain “good works” -the works of faith.
Paul outworks “James“, and all the others, in the Faith, so he “claims” -but he did not outwork anyone of the Disciples or Apostles, for all had their call and fulfilled it -which Church history is replete with the stories of the works of the Apostles in the lands they went into in the beginning of the age of the Church, and they all worked hard in the harvest of the LORD“S vineyard and all will receive their own rewards [Paul will have to share some of his rewards for his works of faith with some of those whom he was responsible for the deaths of -that‘s my opinion, only, and I may change it as I see fit].
Paul and works of Faith commanded to be done by the Believers called into the Faith:
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with good works ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for good works, than for evil works.
And for the record, Paul is not MAD"But he said, I am not MAD, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness".
The works of faith:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 26:10 a woman is commended for doing a good work upon Christ Jesus
Mar 13:34
Jesus tells of going away and giving every servant his work to do, and of rewarding the servants who do well when He returns.
Luk 24:19 Jesus was mighty in works and the Word -He told us -who are born again in His name- to do the works He did.
And you have not replied to my post about MAD doctrine being against Israel in the same way the Plantation owners were in the main against the freedom of slaves in the USA....Your doctrince teaches, falsely, that "Israel" is to be kept from heaven, and your "paulinists" will rule earth from heaven: that is anti-Israel bogotry, but the truth is that redeemed Gentiles are grafted into the "Elect Plant of Righteousness", which the natural namesake people are branches in by natural birth, born naturally in "the Name" of the Beloved and only begotten Son of God -even though they each have to personally be born again, as Abraham was promised the Spirit of, which promise is about the adoption in the New Man.
Jews and Gentiles must be born again in the Spirit of promise to receive the spiritual inheritance of the heavenly promises granted only to the Elect Son of God, whose name is "Israel".
All the Gentile proselyets were circumcisied that were coming through Israel before Peters vision, salvation was of the Jew at this time, and the Abrahamic standerd of blessing, and cursing was the rule for the gentiles, even most of the gentiles preached to after Peters vision were found in the Jewish synagogues which was the manner of Pauls ministery to the Jew first among the Gentiles,
Abrahamic promises did include a heavenly calling the New Jerusalem, but after salvation was no longer of the Jews, and the Jew first was also done away with you have something other than prophetic written scripture taking place, a hidden calling was revealed that not only had the believer resurrected, but also risen and seated with Christ far above the principalities and powers, during the Abrahamic promises this wasnt part of the deal, resurrection was the hope but Christ was the only one stated as being risen seated in heaven, this new hope is Pauls prayer to the saints in Ephesians that they would be inlightened to this hope that has all spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ, not awaiting the return of Christ, but appearing with Christ in glory Heaven, not coming to earth in his glory within the prophetic program in the written word.
Zeke.
Brother John
New member
But why? What need does God, or I or anyone else have of it. What function does
it serve? If you say, it's an example of a Spritual change, then would not my lifestyle be a better gauge of that? And if you say it's a public announcement, then should'nt my word be good enought? And if you say it's in obedience, you imply that we must obey a law (demand) to show God's grace. You say it's a symbol, what need do I have for symbol, when I have the real thing? You say Jesus gave us water baptism, when it was done as a ritual long be for Jesus, and He did it to please the Jewish law, which He done away with in exchange for grace. You say it's a "step of discipleship", I'm not a disciple of law but of grace. Looking scripture over, it seems to lend itself more toward a man made ritual that the jews had a hard time overcoming, than it does an ordinance meant for believers today. At least thats how I read it.:juggle: On the other hand, you have different fingers.
Brother John
New member
Read the Bible like you read my post? I think not.
"Jewish law, which He done away with in exchange for grace"
I did not say, water baptism went anywhere, but the law did.
Unless there is a leak in your baptismal!:surf: I'm just looking at it from all angles, open to the truth.
The heavenly promises are to Israel, only.
No one but Israel gets the glory.
No human being, but Israel, the New Man, Christ in flesh of the second human being creation, ascended and was seated on the throne of dominion of this earth's creation.
The land promises are given to Abram, and are irrevocable, but the heavenly inheritance is given to AbraHAm, and is irrevocable. Israel was formed to establish the heavens.
Gentiles, as single branches cut off the wild tree, who are grafted into the "Tree of Righteousness", which natural Israel has by the promise of the Spirit, are joined to the commonwealth of Israel, and the Firstborn in the New Man is Israel, whose namesake people have never been cut off totally, only some who did not believe were cut off, and Believing Gentiles grafted in.
The Promise of the Spirit through the "Seed" of AbraHAm is to all born in Adam, to whosoever will, and that promise was given before the Law, and no man ever entered into the spiritual heritage of Israel before the Firstborn, as the the Foundation Stone of Zion, above [Which Zion above is the "Woman" whose Seed He is] rose from the dead and ascended, establishing Zion above with those whom He led from the captivity of the first death, who were held below, in comfort but in separation from the Glory, to Zion above.
You need to learn the doctrines of Christ from His Word instead of putting forth MAD handbook writings which are totally contradicting to the Word of Scripture.
And Grace came by Jesus Christ, not by the MAD paul, so every time you say Grace came by Paul you lie against Jesus Christ.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Believers, Jews and Gentiles, are not come to the "law" dispensed at Sinai, but Believing JEws and Gentiles are come to the heavenly Zion:
Hbr 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
"Perfection" did not come by the Law, but by the "Once for all Atonement of the Acceptable Offering", and by that Acceptance, the first death was ended and hell gave forth her prisoners at the ascension of the Firstborn.
Read the Bible like you read my post? I think not.
"Jewish law, which He done away with in exchange for grace"
I did not say, water baptism went anywhere, but the law did.
Unless there is a leak in your baptismal!:surf: I'm just looking at it from all angles, open to the truth.
There is a difference between Jewish ritual baptisms and NT Church Age believer's baptism. It was the command of Christ and the practice of the early church in Acts. It is a public witness and identification with the Church. God often used symbols with His people in the OT. A point of obedience in the NT is an expression of faith. Since Jesus, Peter, Paul and others taught and practiced it, why are you rationalizing it away?
And also, Jesus Christ was not baptized in water as a Jewish proselyte.
He was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness", and as such, He took back to Himself the position of "Firstborn of earth" the Righteous One, that the Levites[John was a Levite], had been given, from YHWH, through Moses.
He is the Anointed One, the High Priest of earth, the King of Righteousness, the Firstborn, and that position belonged to Adam -lost -Cain-lost-Seth -lost by death, and so on, to Melche [Shem, morphed as a type of the Messiah by the Holy Spirit not giving his genealogy on purpose], then Abram, Isaac, Jacob, David....to Jesus Christ.
Num 3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Num 3:45 Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I [am] the LORD.
Paul, who is the apostle of the Gentiles during this dispensation of Grace, spoke of baptism in 8 different passages. Only once does Paul make specific reference to water baptism.
1. 1 Corinithians 10:2 - Israel being baptized unto Moses. This baptism has no reference to this dispensation.
2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - Holy Spirit as the One who baptizes believers into the one Body of Christ. This was purely a spiritual work and has no reference to a ceremony involving water.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:29 - Context shows that Paul is speaking of baptism as a suffering of martyrdom.
4. Galatians 3:27 - Water baptism is not what is being talked about here. Clearly the Holy Spirit is spoken of here.
5. 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 - Paul makes specific reference to water baptism here. Although he states that he had baptized at least three people in Corinth, he plainly states that Christ had never commissioned him to practice water baptism.
6. Ephesians 4:5 - Paul states that there is only one baptism. It must be that alone of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere is water found here. One means one. (1 Timothy 2:5)
7. & 8. Romans 6:3-4 & Colossians 2:12 - These passages are in the midst of doctrinal exposition dealing with deliverance through identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and are not dealing with Church administration or water baptism. It is 100% effective in putting every baptized person into Christ. Water is not to be found in the context of these passages. It is completely a spiritual baptism. Refer to Galatians 2:20 - I was crucified with Christ.
Contrast that to the gospels and early Acts. :chew:
1. 1 Corinithians 10:2 - Israel being baptized unto Moses. This baptism has no reference to this dispensation.
2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - Holy Spirit as the One who baptizes believers into the one Body of Christ. This was purely a spiritual work and has no reference to a ceremony involving water.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:29 - Context shows that Paul is speaking of baptism as a suffering of martyrdom.
4. Galatians 3:27 - Water baptism is not what is being talked about here. Clearly the Holy Spirit is spoken of here.
5. 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 - Paul makes specific reference to water baptism here. Although he states that he had baptized at least three people in Corinth, he plainly states that Christ had never commissioned him to practice water baptism.
6. Ephesians 4:5 - Paul states that there is only one baptism. It must be that alone of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere is water found here. One means one. (1 Timothy 2:5)
7. & 8. Romans 6:3-4 & Colossians 2:12 - These passages are in the midst of doctrinal exposition dealing with deliverance through identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and are not dealing with Church administration or water baptism. It is 100% effective in putting every baptized person into Christ. Water is not to be found in the context of these passages. It is completely a spiritual baptism. Refer to Galatians 2:20 - I was crucified with Christ.
Contrast that to the gospels and early Acts. :chew:
Christ did commission all disciples to baptize before He ascended. This was practiced by the early church including Paul. It was normative, so Paul did not teach extensively on it. Just because Paul did not personally baptize all of his converts (either does Billy Graham, though he expects it will happen in a local church), does not mean He did not feel it was valid. Repentant faith and baptism were normative expressions in the early church based on the teachings of Christ that were to be obeyed by His followers until He comes again in glory. The text should not be read as a prohibition against baptism, but a statement that Paul preached the gospel and did not pastor every convert. He was an itinerant missionary in many cases and simply left discipleship to others.
It is incorrect to think that baptism was salvific in any dispensation, including the pre-Paul one.
It is incorrect to think that baptism was salvific in any dispensation, including the pre-Paul one.
Brother John
New member
You say there is a difference between OT baptism (washing) and NT baptism. Is there a difference between OT circumcism and NT circumcism? They did a lot of things in the early church that was a carry-over from the OT and Law, that took time to purge out. Where is it written in scripture, "to be baptized as a public witness?" Where does it say we are to use symbols? If I am not obedient to water baptism, what will happen to me? I am rationalizing because I believe God is a rational God! Logically, what purpose does water baptism serve that we can't otherwise perform in a better way?
Time is what keeps things from happening all at once!
Circumcision is an Old Covenant issue. It is not part of the NT church. If some practiced it, they were carrying over unnecessary baggage. Believer's baptism in identification with Christ is a Church, New Testament thing. It is analagous, but not identical to circumcision (circ. did not save anyone either; faith did..Rom. 4;5...circ. was an outward act of obedience that symbolized inward reality/faith, just like external baptism is).
Find a whole sermon to unbelievers by Paul to prove your dissembling doctrine.-you cannot, and MAD doctrine is based upon false pretend doctrine invented by men who dissemble the One Faith, once delivered to the Saints -final, finished, and nothing to be added to.
Since Paul's letters are only written to saints in the One Faith, Once Delivered to the Saints, then why are you so blind as to believe Paul is supposed to be redundantly laying the one foundation of the doctrine of Christ again and again -which doctrine is in Hebrews 6.
You have no message by Paul to unbelievers, only his letters to born again, water baptized, Pentecostal, Jews, Gentiles, males and females in the One Faith, once delivered to the saints.
Why isn’t Paul laying the “one foundation” of the One Faith in his letters [Hebrews 6]? -Because he only writes to:
Born again, water baptized, Pentecostal, male and female Believers in the One Name, by the Spirit of adoption, "Saints".
Also, Paul the Apostle was not commissioned by the Antiochian Church to be an apostle to the Gentiles alone, but Barnabas, one of the 70 chosen disciples of Jesus Christ was commissioned by the -mainly Gentile- Church in Antioch -prophetically called by the the Holy Spirit- to go; and Paul went with Barnabas; both of them apostles, called to go and sent by the Church.
MAD has it all wrong on Paul the Apostle from the beginning, and wrongly wrests his writings "to destruction".
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 14:14 [Which] when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
It's about obedience to the LORD Jesus Christ.
He commands all nations to repent and be water baptized until the end of the age.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Jesus commands you to wash your Adam you are wearing.
Adam is dead, your body is in Adam. your body will not rise in the resurrection of regeneration in the image of the New Man if you refuse to wash it, in faith and obedience, of that resurrection in the image of the New Man.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, [body] if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? [body's resurrection]
Be born again in Christ and wash your old man, the Adam you wear, or be a lawless cast away forever!
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Laq...when Jude 3 talks about the faith once for all entrusted to the saints, this seems to be the one gospel after the cross that Peter, Paul, and others preached. Mid-Acts would say that Jude is non-Pauline and part of the circumcision letters. Me thinks they are wrong on this point and others.
Of course they are wrong, on both points and they put themselves outside them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
the word once, which Jude used means "1) once, one time 2) once for all"
=it is final, finished, done- and there is one and only one faith once delivered to the "Saints".
Jud 1:1 ¶Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:...Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.