ECT Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified . . .

[Cross Reference]

All you have done is try to further an agenda that you have no scripture to support. The very scripture you claim to try to explain is the very scripture that proves you are wrong.

Which part? Prove me wrong. I am all 'ears'.

 

[Cross Reference]

True - you were pointing that part out as a distinction; as a means of your actual point and in that instance.

What point might that be do you suppose?

But use of an example, as a means pointing out one principle or another, will often fail to make its intended point to it's intended recipient, should said recipient take the example used to be the point being made.

As dodge just did.

dodge often makes that kind of mistake oblivious to his having made it.

He often takes an example given as being the principle said example given had only been given as a means of illustrating the principle meant to be illustrated through said example.

You were using part of the passage as an example of a point you were attempting to make.

At the same time, you are still off on your over all point, nevertheless.

The very often clueless dodge, nevertheless ending up sound on this one, as a result, even if by accident.

The whole exchange on this thread continues to be a fascinating study in the individual modes of perception each participant is following.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11, 12.

John 1:1 examples NO principles because they aren't. They are facts.

If you want to show me what you believe my error is, please do.

 

[Danoh]

What point might that be do you suppose?



John 1:1 examples NO principles because they aren't. They are facts.

If you want to show me what you believe my error is, please do.

:doh:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12.

 

[Cross Reference]

:doh:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 (KJV) . . . Yes? And?

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the [written] word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few." Acts 17:11-12 (KJV)

[Emphasis added]

 

[dodge]

Which part? Prove me wrong. I am all 'ears'.

You do understand that Jesus is the " Word" right ?

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 is pretty clear that Jesus is God and your inability to understand or receive that truth speaks volumes,sadly.


Jhn 1:14
¶
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Cross Reference]

You do understand that Jesus is the " Word" right ?

If the Word was given the Name Jesus from eternity past, I yield. However, we don't know, do we? Not even Moses called Him by a name, right?

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 is pretty clear that Jesus is God and your inability to understand or receive that truth speaks volumes,sadly.

Wrong! What is clear is the "Word was God". You say the Word was Jesus when Jesus wasn't born but would become the body prepared for the habitation of the Word that it could be said: "the Word was MADE flesh and dwelt among us" 'and when He was translated on the mountain we beheld His Glory as of the only begotten of the Father.' That is when John could accurately write John 1 ....not before.

You inability to understand is due to you willful refusal to embrace the scriptures on your own, without a false doctrinal crutch..

 

[dodge]

Wrong! What is clear is the "Word was God". You say the Word was Jesus when Jesus wasn't born but would become the body prepared for the habitation of the Word that it could be said: "the Word was MADE flesh and dwelt among us" 'and when He was translated on the mountain we beheld His Glory as of the only begotten of the Father.' That is when John could accurately write John 1 ....not before.

You inability to understand is due to you willful refusal to embrace the scriptures on your own, without a false doctrinal crutch..

Jesus existed before He was born in human form as scripture says.


Jhn 8:58
¶
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Danoh]

Wrong! What is clear is the "Word was God". You say the Word was Jesus when Jesus wasn't born but would become the body prepared for the habitation of the Word that it could be said: "the Word was MADE flesh and dwelt among us" 'and when He was translated on the mountain we beheld His Glory as of the only begotten of the Father.' That is when John could accurately write John 1 ....not before.

You inability to understand is due to you willful refusal to embrace the scriptures on your own, without a false doctrinal crutch..

Nope.

The Word was God...and The Word was made flesh...and we beheld HIS glory.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Repeatedly in those passages - He = The Word...and The Word = Him.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[Danoh]

By the way, the "all things...made by him" being referred to in various descriptives in all those passages is all positions of authority, rule, dominion, and so on...

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus existed before He was born in human form as scripture says.


Jhn 8:58
¶
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Scripture doesn't say. When speaking this way scripture is referring to the "Word of God". In the above Jesus is acknowledging the Word of God of Himself. You need a gift of "understanding".

 

[Danoh]

Scripture doesn't say. When speaking this way scripture is referring to the "Word of God". In the above Jesus is acknowledging the Word of God of Himself. You need a gift of "understanding".

Nope; yours is a mis-fire, once more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[Cross Reference]

Nope; yours is a mis-fire, once more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

No misfire on my part. The "Word of God laid aside His Heavenly 'address' to be completeely realised as son of man and be limited of Himself by a purely human way of life; i.e., to become God's representative of 'normal man' as man was intended to be from Adam's seed. That is what the "new birth" from above is designed to produce for God. . . "Sons brought unto glory". "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory [Word of God], to make the captain [Jesus] of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I sorry, but, I didn't read the name "Jesus" in that. Obviously you don't know what the title "Christ" means.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Been there, read that. Yu haven't replied to it.

 

[dodge]

Scripture doesn't say. When speaking this way scripture is referring to the "Word of God". In the above Jesus is acknowledging the Word of God of Himself. You need a gift of "understanding".

The only way you could come to the conclusion you have is to ignore what Jesus said !

Jhn 8:58
¶
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Cross Reference]

The only way you could come to the conclusion you have is to ignore what Jesus said !

Jhn 8:58
¶
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Spoken by the "Word of God OF Himself. Apparently you don't remember He didn't think it robbery to think like He did that in His flesh He considered Himself equal to God and was not presumptuous in doing so?

 

[dodge]

Spoken by the "Word of God OF Himself. Apparently you don't remember He didn't think it robbery to think like He did that in His flesh He considered Himself equal to God and was not presumptuous in doing so?

What part do you not understand that the "word" of God is God ?

 

[Cross Reference]

What part do you not understand that the "word" of God is God ?

I am pleased to see you understood what I stated. Thank you

<You didn't tell me I needed to spell it out for you>

 

[dodge]

I am pleased to see you understood what I stated. Thank you

<You didn't tell me I needed to spell it out for you>

I am glad to see that you finally understand that God put on flesh and came as His own Word.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Now, having said that, that'll be all I say about the Trinity. There is no point in debating a topic for which critical data has been intentionally left out of the Bible.

I agree that the Bible does not contain enough information to claim that God is a Trinity, especially in light of all the verses that are contrary to that notion.

I'd be very interested in reading whatever it is you think you've got about why my "...principle of justice is not correct, is illogical, and is therefore irrelevant".

I am basing my understanding on your "principle of justice" on what you said in this post:

If it was not God who died for our sins, by what standard of justice would that death have paid the sin debt of more than one other person? Your question really strikes at the very core of the Christian faith. The Bible flatly states that Jesus was God in the beginning and that He became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1) and in addition to that, we know that God is just and that, therefore, it had to be God who died for our sins because the death of a mere man could only pay the debt of no more than one other man. And that is presuming that the man who died was perfectly innocent which we know (also from Scripture) it is impossible for a mere man to be. Thus, if you get the answer to your question wrong, you undermine, not only the plainly stated truth of the Bible but of justice and God's own righteousness itself and thereby the veracity of the whole of Christianity.

​

Just what do you think justice is and why do you think that?

Justice in the Bible refers to two main concepts that are found together.
צְדָקָה tsĕdaqah referring to acts of righteousness
מִשְׁפָּט mishpat referring to an appropriate punishment for wicked acts

What does it mean to say that God is just?

The word for 'just' means righteous.
God is righteous, He does what is right.

In what way can God not punish a man's sins and remain just?

If doing what is right means not punishing a man for his sins, then God can remain righteous when He does not punish a man for his sins.
Here is one of many verses that show God stating it is more righteous to let a repentant man live than to punish a repentant man for his sins:

Ezekiel 18:23 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?​

Was justice satisfied by the death of Jesus, if so, how so?

Justice is never "satisfied" by the shedding of innocent blood.

Isaiah 59:7 7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.​

In other words, instead of making bald assertions, make the argument!

If God has to see blood shed in order to accept that "justice" has been met and God does not care whose blood is shed as long as blood is shed, then God would not be righteous and the punishment would not be an appropriate judgment.

The death of Jesus was not done to satisfy some unrighteous notion of "justice" that accepts the shedding of innocent blood to pay for the sins of the wicked.

Therefore the death of Jesus was for a different reason than is usually taught in church.

 

[Cross Reference]

I am glad to see that you finally understand that God put on flesh and came as His own Word.

I am glad you finally saw that was what I was trying to convey. But some people are just quicker that others.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Pretty convenient to cut off the part of the verse that PROVES you are wrong !

Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14
¶
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Logos is not a person.
Logos is a concept, idea, or thought manifested in speech, the spoken word.

Here is how the 1st century readers of the Gospel of John would have understood the verses based on the meaning of logos that they knew:
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the thought, and the thought was with God, and the thought was God.
John 1:14 And the thought was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.