Viruses are manufactured

[carolus magnus]

Last I checked, marriage is (sadly) on the decline in today's society. Compare to what the scripture you quoted says.

As in the days of Noah. What were the days of Noah like? Scripture tells us:

Gen 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Sounds a LOT like today's society. Which means we live in a time that is similar. But what else do we have? Science, technology, wonders. And lots, and lots of evil.

So putting these together it seems that it is not a stretch to say in Noah's day they had science, technology, wonders. Again, that doesn't mean they were walking around with iPhones, it likely expressed itself very different. Biology is the same today as it was then, so to say that they may have had a form of biological warfare is reasonable.

And, consistent with my prediction, they just found massive structures under the Pyramids. Blowing away the established history. Early Egyptians had more highly advanced technology and declined over time.

 

[JudgeRightly]

As in the days of Noah. What were the days of Noah like? Scripture tells us:



Sounds a LOT like today's society. Which means we live in a time that is similar. But what else do we have? Science, technology, wonders. And lots, and lots of evil.

So what?

So putting these together it seems that it is not a stretch to say in Noah's day they had science, technology, wonders.

Again, I have no problem with the ancients being geniuses.

The problem comes in when you try to assert because they were evil, just as today's society is evil... therefore they must have been capable of things that we today are capable of.

That's a non-sequitur. It does not logically follow.

Again, that doesn't mean they were walking around with iPhones, it likely expressed itself very different. Biology is the same today as it was then,

Because you say so?

Something changed as a result of the flood.

The atmosphere was different. No longer was there a mist that watered the earth. It was now rain, and rainbows. And wine-making was possible, or at the very least much easier. And God said men would only live to 120 years of age, instead of the usual 6-900+ years.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying there's no evidence for your position other than conjecture and assumptions.

so to say that they may have had a form of biological warfare is reasonable.

Where is your evidence for this?

And, consistent with my prediction, they just found massive structures under the Pyramids. Blowing away the established history. Early Egyptians had more highly advanced technology and declined over time.

I'm a bit skeptical about those massive structures, though I would argue, based on what I've seen from the YT channel "The Land of Chem," (who has a lot of content dealing with the Pyramids) they were probably mostly meant for large scale agricultural chemical use, for making stuff that would help with living in such an environment.

They did things on the macro-scale. Not the micro-scale.

Agricultural chemical production is a far cry from biological warfare.

 

[Clete]

As in the days of Noah. What were the days of Noah like? Scripture tells us:



Sounds a LOT like today's society. Which means we live in a time that is similar.

Well, that is more than just a little bit a matter of perspective.

Jesus intended to return within the life time of some of His disciples. This means that Jesus' day was as it was in the days of Noah.

Societal evil seems to ebb and flow. There have been several periods where evil has peaked...

• Canaanite and Phoenician Cultures (c. 1500–500 BC) – Widespread child sacrifice, ritual prostitution, and idolatry so abhorrent that God commanded Israel to destroy them.
• Roman Decadence and Persecutions (1st–4th centuries AD) – Gladiatorial games, rampant immorality, and brutal persecution of Christians, including Nero’s sadistic executions.
• The Mongol Conquests (13th century AD) – Genghis Khan and his successors slaughtered entire cities, sometimes killing millions in a single campaign.
• Transatlantic Slave Trade (16th–19th centuries AD) – The large-scale kidnapping, abuse, and forced labor of millions, often justified with twisted theology.
• Nazi Germany and the Holocaust (1933–1945) – Systematic genocide, industrialized murder, and horrifying medical experiments on innocent people.
• Communist Regimes (20th century AD) – Stalin’s purges, Mao’s Great Leap Forward, and the Khmer Rouge’s killing fields collectively led to over 100 million deaths.

Today we have the mass slaughter of the unborn, normalization of the worst kind of sexual perversion, human trafficking on an industrial scale, and growing hostility toward both Christians and Jews. This suggests that we may be approaching (or are already in) another peak of societal evil. There are, however, some recent developments that leads one to think that the pendulum may be starting to swing back the other way and so whether this peak in societal evil is the last or just the latest is yet to be seen.

But what else do we have? Science, technology, wonders. And lots, and lots of evil.

So putting these together it seems that it is not a stretch to say in Noah's day they had science, technology, wonders.

Umm, yeah - it's definitely a stretch, dude! I mean, there is precisely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of a technologically advanced society in ancient times.

Again, that doesn't mean they were walking around with iPhones, it likely expressed itself very different. Biology is the same today as it was then, so to say that they may have had a form of biological warfare is reasonable.

Nonsense! This isn't how you do your theology, is it?

This is ancient aliens level stupidity.

And, consistent with my prediction, they just found massive structures under the Pyramids. Blowing away the established history. Early Egyptians had more highly advanced technology and declined over time.

This logic doesn't follow.

"We found something under ground. Therefore, whoever put it there had advanced technology such that they understood microbiology and could create viruses."

They find stuff underground all the time, Charles! The Egyptians were good at digging holes in the ground. Big deal! You don't think that they would have put even one single high tech instrument of any sort inside the tomb of even one Pharaoh? (Not to mention the tombs of other kings all over the ancient world.) Not one microscope (or even anything that could have served a similar purpose), not one computer of ANY SORT or description whatsoever, not even one precision tooled instrument, never mind the tools required to make such a precision instrument has ever been found nor has any such thing ever even been described in any ancient text. No ancient civilization had the ability to generate truly flat reference surfaces, which means that they couldn’t possibly have made the kind of high-precision tools necessary for microbiology, let alone virus engineering.

Ancient civilizations recorded religious, astronomical, and medical knowledge in great detail. Why is there no mention of microbiology or lab work?
We find pottery, tools, weapons, and even organic materials like scrolls and papyrus. Why not a single test tube, microscope, or anything remotely resembling a biological research facility?

The answer is because there weren't any such things!

 

[JudgeRightly]

As in the days of Noah. What were the days of Noah like? Scripture tells us:



Sounds a LOT like today's society. Which means we live in a time that is similar. But what else do we have? Science, technology, wonders. And lots, and lots of evil.

So putting these together it seems that it is not a stretch to say in Noah's day they had science, technology, wonders. Again, that doesn't mean they were walking around with iPhones, it likely expressed itself very different. Biology is the same today as it was then, so to say that they may have had a form of biological warfare is reasonable.

And, consistent with my prediction, they just found massive structures under the Pyramids. Blowing away the established history. Early Egyptians had more highly advanced technology and declined over time.

Well, that is more than just a little bit a matter of perspective.

Jesus intended to return within the life time of some of His disciples. This means that Jesus' day was as it was in the days of Noah.

Societal evil seems to ebb and flow. There have been several periods where evil has peaked...

• Canaanite and Phoenician Cultures (c. 1500–500 BC) – Widespread child sacrifice, ritual prostitution, and idolatry so abhorrent that God commanded Israel to destroy them.
• Roman Decadence and Persecutions (1st–4th centuries AD) – Gladiatorial games, rampant immorality, and brutal persecution of Christians, including Nero’s sadistic executions.
• The Mongol Conquests (13th century AD) – Genghis Khan and his successors slaughtered entire cities, sometimes killing millions in a single campaign.
• Transatlantic Slave Trade (16th–19th centuries AD) – The large-scale kidnapping, abuse, and forced labor of millions, often justified with twisted theology.
• Nazi Germany and the Holocaust (1933–1945) – Systematic genocide, industrialized murder, and horrifying medical experiments on innocent people.
• Communist Regimes (20th century AD) – Stalin’s purges, Mao’s Great Leap Forward, and the Khmer Rouge’s killing fields collectively led to over 100 million deaths.

Today we have the mass slaughter of the unborn, normalization of the worst kind of sexual perversion, human trafficking on an industrial scale, and growing hostility toward both Christians and Jews. This suggests that we may be approaching (or are already in) another peak of societal evil. There are, however, some recent developments that leads one to think that the pendulum may be starting to swing back the other way and so whether this peak in societal evil is the last or just the latest is yet to be seen.


Umm, yeah - it's definitely a stretch, dude! I mean, there is precisely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of a technologically advanced society in ancient times.


Nonsense! This isn't how you do your theology, is it?

This is ancient aliens level stupidity.


This logic doesn't follow.

"We found something under ground. Therefore, whoever put it there had advanced technology such that they understood microbiology and could create viruses."

They find stuff underground all the time, Charles! The Egyptians were good at digging holes in the ground. Big deal! You don't think that they would have put even one single high tech instrument of any sort inside the tomb of even one Pharaoh? (Not to mention the tombs of other kings all over the ancient world.) Not one microscope (or even anything that could have served a similar purpose), not one computer of ANY SORT or description whatsoever, not even one precision tooled instrument, never mind the tools required to make such a precision instrument has ever been found nor has any such thing ever even been described in any ancient text. No ancient civilization had the ability to generate truly flat reference surfaces, which means that they couldn’t possibly have made the kind of high-precision tools necessary for microbiology, let alone virus engineering.

Ancient civilizations recorded religious, astronomical, and medical knowledge in great detail. Why is there no mention of microbiology or lab work?
We find pottery, tools, weapons, and even organic materials like scrolls and papyrus. Why not a single test tube, microscope, or anything remotely resembling a biological research facility?

The answer is because there weren't any such things!

Something else to point out:

Generally speaking, wicked societies don't tend to progress much in terms of technological advancement, because they tend to reject the foundational principles on which the world works. We see this today. Just yesterday I heard that Ohio had it's first case of measles for 20205. MEASLES! Something we had mostly eliminated, but which has now made a come-back because of our importation of people from countries that do not follow good health practices, all so that the democrats could try to take over the country through their votes!

Or how about the fact that biological and even astronomical science have largely not progressed since the introduction of the Big Bang and Darwinian Evolution?

Or perhaps, just look at Islamic nations, where they oppress their women and anyone who rejects their ideology. How much advancement has been made by them, barring any outside influence? They're practically still living in the bronze age! The only reason they have the technology they do is due to western influence, and that's assuming they haven't stolen it!

Yet MOST of the fathers of modern science were Christian. And going back to ancient times, God gave laws specifically dealing with personal hygiene. When those laws are ignored, or when they are co-opted by the wicked in order to obtain power *cough*Fauci*cough*, many people die as a result.

Even in today's society, abortion is rampant, the slaughter of the innocent, why? All because of women (and men) who are selfish, and put their own happiness at the forefront of their lives, rather than honoring God.

No. Rebellion against God generally does not result in scientific advancement. If anything, it leads to the destruction of the society which rejects God.

And the society that existed on earth prior to the flood was the most wicked society to have ever lived.

It's the reason I'm inclined to believe that there weren't very many human beings on the earth at the time of the flood, and almost if not zero children under the age of accountability. It's why I'm inclined to believe that even had God not wiped out humanity, they likely would have died out, though it would probably have taken much, much longer to do so, and so God flooding the earth was a mercy, putting them out of their misery, even aside from the fact that the human genome had become so corrupt as to be unsaveable, save for one man and his family.

 

[Clete]

Something else to point out:

Generally speaking, wicked societies don't tend to progress much in terms of technological advancement, because they tend to reject the foundational principles on which the world works. We see this today. Just yesterday I heard that Ohio had it's first case of measles for 20205. MEASLES! Something we had mostly eliminated, but which has now made a come-back because of our importation of people from countries that do not follow good health practices, all so that the democrats could try to take over the country through their votes!

Or how about the fact that biological and even astronomical science have largely not progressed since the introduction of the Big Bang and Darwinian Evolution?

Or perhaps, just look at Islamic nations, where they oppress their women and anyone who rejects their ideology. How much advancement has been made by them, barring any outside influence? They're practically still living in the bronze age! The only reason they have the technology they do is due to western influence, and that's assuming they haven't stolen it!

Yet MOST of the fathers of modern science were Christian. And going back to ancient times, God gave laws specifically dealing with personal hygiene. When those laws are ignored, or when they are co-opted by the wicked in order to obtain power *cough*Fauci*cough*, many people die as a result.

Even in today's society, abortion is rampant, the slaughter of the innocent, why? All because of women (and men) who are selfish, and put their own happiness at the forefront of their lives, rather than honoring God.

No. Rebellion against God generally does not result in scientific advancement. If anything, it leads to the destruction of the society which rejects God.

And the society that existed on earth prior to the flood was the most wicked society to have ever lived.

It's the reason I'm inclined to believe that there weren't very many human beings on the earth at the time of the flood, and almost if not zero children under the age of accountability. It's why I'm inclined to believe that even had God not wiped out humanity, they likely would have died out, though it would probably have taken much, much longer to do so, and so God flooding the earth was a mercy, putting them out of their misery, even aside from the fact that the human genome had become so corrupt as to be unsaveable, save for one man and his family.

There's a clear cycle societies go through...

A lack of resources yields hardship and hardship demands discipline, and necessity forces people to be rational. Rationality fosters virtue, and virtue strengthens society. As a result, prosperity follows. Prosperity in turn breeds comfort, comfort leads to complacency, and complacency invites decadence. With decadence comes irrationality, as people indulge in excess and believe that the luxuries someone else's rational mind made possible are their birthright and give no thought to where they come from or how to maintain them. They, therefore, abandon the very virtues that built their civilization. Moral decline accelerates, corruption spreads, and the society weakens. In time, it collapses under the weight of its own decay, returning to a lack of resources and hardship. And so, the cycle begins again. Strength is born from struggle, ruin is born from ease.

Given this observation, it seems at least plausible that there was some ready access to resources and a good degree of comfort in the society during the time before Noah's flood. Generally speaking, hungry people don't have the time or the energy to have every thought be "only evil continually". A phase, by the way, that I have long associated with the idea that the whole society was just embracing irrationality (what we would call liberalism today) on a world-wide scale. Much like what happened recently with the world-wide madness during the Covid pandemic along with this lunatic "Woke" mind virus that the world seems to be slowly recovering from.

 

[Clete]

@Avajs,

There is another, just as compelling, reason to reject atheism as false.

Atheists almost always embrace naturalism. Meaning that they believe that everything that exists can be explained solely by natural causes and laws, without any supernatural influence; that all reality is ultimately physical and that things like consciousness, morality, and reason emerge from material processes rather than from anything beyond nature.

Based on our previous exchanges, it's a pretty safe assumption to say that you are no exception; that you are a whole hearted naturalist and reject the notion of anything super-natural. If so, I invite you to consider the following...

If naturalism is true, then every thought we have is just the result of physical processes, nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain shaped by evolution. But if that’s the case, then our reasoning isn’t based on truth, but rather on just whatever physical causes happen to produce. That includes the belief in naturalism itself.

A belief isn’t valid just because something caused it. It has to be grounded in reason, as you yourself have stated. If all thoughts are determined by prior physical states, then conclusions are not discovered through logic but are merely produced by physical causal forces. That doesn’t just make reasoning unreliable, it destroys the very concept of rational thought altogether. Rationality itself disappears, and with it, any claim that the atheist has to a rational worldview.

If naturalism were true, we would have no reason to trust our own thinking. But we do trust our thinking! We recognize truth. We reason. But reason isn’t just a series of events, it’s a process of recognizing truth, independent of what physical causes may have produced in our brains. If our conclusions are determined by blind forces rather than grounded in actual truth, and there's no basis upon which they can they be accepted as true, which means naturalism itself collapses under its own weight. Naturalism cannot be true, because the very thing we use to evaluate truth, reason itself, could not exist if naturalism were correct.

Naturalism saws off the very branch it sits on. If we can reason at all, we must look beyond nature for an explanation. An explanation that the atheist has no means to even begin to look for because any attempt on their part to look for such an explanation would openly contradict their own worldview.

Now, Avajs, that’s two separate ways I’ve shown you that your worldview collapses completely. How many more will it take before you start to wonder if you’ve made a mistake?"

Clete


P.S. The above argument is my attempt to articulate what C. S. Lewis spent the first five chapters of his book, "Miracles" explaining.