• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

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Clete

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You are welcome. But I’m not buying your God. Your presupposition is that God exists and it is the God of the Bible. You base your understanding of the world on a cobbled together book that is without a consistent reading. It has led humans to acceptance of ignorance, numerous wars, irrational thought, etc all because one must believe it or be subject to ever lasting punishment. No thanks.
That's silliness and biased nonsense.

Christianity is the single greatest thing that has ever happened to this world and it almost single-handedly responsible for practically everything that makes your comfortable life possible, not to mention the fact that you're likely to live at all past the age of 40.

Besides, accepting "my God" is actually several steps down the logical road here. All I've actually proven to this point is that atheism is false. Are you intellectually honest and brave enough to even come that far?
 

Avajs

Active member
That's silliness and biased nonsense.

Christianity is the single greatest thing that has ever happened to this world and it almost single-handedly responsible for practically everything that makes your comfortable life possible, not to mention the fact that you're likely to live at all past the age of 40.

Besides, accepting "my God" is actually several steps down the logical road here. All I've actually proven to this point is that atheism is false. Are you intellectually honest and brave enough to even come that far?
You've proven atheism is false because John 1:1? Perhaps your biased nonsense is showing.
And now Christianity is responsible for all things that make my life comfortable. Petroleum makes my life comfortable--heating, cooling, mobility, it was created millions of years ago by the remains of plankton and algae, no Christianity needed, no God needed.
 

JudgeRightly

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No, I made it clear that I reject his presupposition of the existence of God.

Except he addressed that.

Which means you either didn't read everything he said, or you intentionally ignored it.

I recommend you do him the honor of at least reading what he said before you dismiss it (and without any sort of evidence/argumentation, at that).

His claim that the Christian presupposition of the existence of God is not arbitrary is simply incorrect.

He didn't just make a claim, though.

He showed, through reasoning, that it is irrational to reject the existence of God, BECAUSE doing so makes it impossible to establish any truth.

Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter or Allah in the Koran.

Not what he did.

If truth is based on logic and evidence, the claim in a book is not sufficient.

THE ENTIRE POINT Clete was making was that Logic isn't

He can claim all he wants that my foundation is collapsing but I don't agree.

He did more than that.

But you ignored what he said, so how would you know?

Here's what he said:

(y)


No.

The statement "All truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason." is itself a truth claim.

How would you establish that claim?

You, along with all atheists, declare that faith is out of bounds; that all truth must be established by reason, yet you cannot establish that claim without assuming the validity of the very logic you seek to establish. That's an act of circularity called begging the question. If, on the other hand, you accept it without proof, then you violate your own standard. Either way, no foundation can be given and your atheistic worldview collapses into irrationality. Atheism is therefore unavoidably irrational (i.e. false) and thus God must exist because of the rational impossibility of the contrary.

The very principle by which you reject faith requires faith to stand. The very logic by which you deny God demands Him to exist. The very reasoning by which you resist Him proves that without Him, reason itself is impossible. You are not merely trapped in contradiction, you are trapped in the inescapable reality that only God makes sense of the very mind that you use to deny Him.

The Christian has no such problem because we begin with God's existence. Notice that the Bible never attempts to prove God's existence, it simply declares it: 'In the beginning, God…' (Gen. 1:1). The Christian worldview presupposes God, not as an arbitrary assumption, but as the necessary foundation for all rational thought. More than that, it presupposes that God is Logic itself and that Jesus Christ is Logic incarnate.

John 1:1—'In the beginning was the Word (Logos: Logic, Reason), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'​
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...​

Because of this, we can use logic and sound reason with full confidence in its validity, without circularity, without contradiction, and without borrowing from another system. Indeed, biblical Christianity is the only fully rational worldview, for all others must, by necessity, steal from it even to utter a single intelligible syllable. The atheist cannot even state his opposition without tacitly relying on truths that only Christianity has the rational ground to support.

So I ask you: Will you continue to stand on a foundation that collapses beneath your feet, or will you acknowledge the only worldview that makes reason itself possible? You have seen the contradiction, and now you must decide; cling to irrationality, or submit to the truth that has been evident from the beginning (Romans 1:18-22). The God you use reason to deny is the very One who gives you the ability to reason at all. Stop borrowing from Him to fight against Him. Instead, surrender to the reality that only in Christ can your intellect, your logic, and your very existence find their true and rightful foundation.
----

I know well what John 1:1 says but just because it is written does not make it true.

Another claim made by you with no evidence to support it.
 

Right Divider

Body part
your statements are both wrong.
No, they are not. Your opinions are wrong. Thanks for playing.
I responded to the post and I am pretty certain you are well aware of the evidence of the age of the earth, you choose not to accept it because it conflicts with your theology
Please feel free to start a thread (in an appropriate forum) where you support your silly claim that the earth is "billions of years old".
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
No, I made it clear that I reject his presupposition of the existence of God.
But made no mention of the basis upon which the rejection was made except for the red herring of your flogging Christianity for all the crimes of humanity.

His claim that the Christian presupposition of the existence of God is not arbitrary is simply incorrect.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Avjs.

Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter or Allah in the Koran.
I DO NOT base it on any declaration of the bible. I did not make any attempt whatsoever to make a biblical argument. I cited the fact that the bible is based on the same presupposition but it is NOT the source of that presupposition. Quite the reverse, actually!

If truth is based on logic and evidence, the claim in a book is not sufficient.
I made no such claim. Reread the argument. You did not understand it.

He can claim all he wants that my foundation is collapsing but I don't agree.
Your agreement or lack thereof is irrelevant. The conclusions of logic are not matters of opinion, which is the primary reason that you, and all atheists, appeal to it as the basis of your worldview. You don't get to simply disagree. I proved it, Avajs! Unless and until you refute the argument, which I know for a fact that you are completely incapable of doing, your disagreement is only evidence of the lies you tell yourself to stay away from the God who created you.

I know well what John 1:1 says but just because it is written does not make it true.
No one suggested otherwise.

Look, this is more or less pathetic! You claim to base your worldview and govern your life based on the verdict of sound reason and all you're doing here is proving that you don't know how to think at all, much less formulate a logically rigorous worldview of sufficient substance that would permit the average pubescent teenager to take your worldview seriously.

The things you've said in this post would make any rational person wonder whether you understood even a single sentence of the argument. It's barely evident that you even read it or that you've ever bothered to read anything that wasn't published on Facebook for that matter. The argument I presented is not a new argument. It's quite famous actually. It's been around, in one form or another, since Aristotle and Plato!

Here's an experiment you can run. Go to Chat GPT. If you have an account, do not log in. Just use it not logged in so that it doesn't know anything about you and you won't be tempted to think that it's telling you something that it thinks you want to hear. Copy/paste the content of post 76 into Chat GPT and ask it how it would objectively rank the strength of that argument on a scale from one to ten.

When you recover after having nearly fainted after reading the 9.5 that it'll likely give it, then start in on a debate with Chat GPT as though it were me. Tell GPT that just because John 1:1 is written down, it doesn't make it true and see it if doesn't laugh at the stupidity of that argument like I did when I read it. It will tell you what I just told you, that no such argument was made nor was any such premise even implied and that you've obviously misunderstood something.

If I seem angry, it's because I am. All I want is, from time to time, to find someone who has sufficient mental acuity to have an intelligently discussed disagreement with; To find someone who can give me a challenge; Someone who has what it takes to make me actually have to work for it. I let myself think for most of a day that you might turn out to be the unicorn I've wanted to see show up and then I read this putrid mess of idiocy that makes me wish I hadn't tossed such a pearl into the muck with you.



I so badly need to find a better hobby! This place is going to drive me to drinking!
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
You've proven atheism is false because John 1:1?
NO! That was not my argument AT ALL!!!

Perhaps your biased nonsense is showing.
Perhaps you're more stupid than you pretend.

And now Christianity is responsible for all things that make my life comfortable. Petroleum makes my life comfortable--heating, cooling, mobility, it was created millions of years ago by the remains of plankton and algae, no Christianity needed, no God needed.
Read a book, Avajs. I mean seriously! This is down right stupidity!

You don't have the brains for a whole book. Read this...

The Foundations of Modern Society in Technology and Scientific Progress​


The technological and scientific advancements that define modern society are deeply rooted in the Christian worldview, particularly in its view of reason, order, and man's role as a steward of creation. While other civilizations made contributions to science and technology, it was within the framework of Christian thought that systematic progress flourished, leading to the modern world.


1. The Rationality of Nature and the Birth of Modern Science

Christianity provided a unique foundation for scientific inquiry by affirming that the universe is rational and intelligible because it was created by a rational God. Unlike animistic or pantheistic traditions that viewed nature as unpredictable or divine, Christianity held that nature follows consistent laws that can be discovered and harnessed for human benefit.
  • The scientific method was pioneered by Christian thinkers like Roger Bacon and later formalized by Francis Bacon, who saw empirical observation as a way to "think God's thoughts after Him."
  • Scientists such as Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, and Blaise Pascal saw their work as uncovering the order God placed in creation. Kepler famously stated, "The chief aim of all investigations of the external world should be to discover the rational order which has been imposed on it by God."
This conviction laid the groundwork for physics, chemistry, biology, and engineering; fields that led to BOTH the Industrial and Technological Revolutions.

2. The Christian Role in Technological Innovation

The development of Western technology was driven by the belief that mankind, made in God's image, was called to exercise dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:28). This led to the harnessing of natural resources and the systematic application of knowledge to improve human life.
  • Agricultural advancements: Christian monasteries were centers of technological innovation, developing new methods for crop rotation, irrigation, and livestock breeding, laying the foundation for later agricultural revolutions.
  • Medical breakthroughs: Modern hospitals trace their origins to Christian charity. The early church pioneered institutional healthcare, and Christian scientists like Louis Pasteur (germ theory) and Joseph Lister (antiseptics) revolutionized medicine.
  • Engineering and infrastructure: The technological mindset fostered by Christian Europe led to innovations in mechanical engineering, including clocks, water mills, and architectural marvels such as the Gothic cathedral, which pushed the boundaries of physics and construction.

3. The Protestant Reformation and the Acceleration of Scientific Progress

The Protestant Reformation emphasized literacy, personal responsibility, and the pursuit of knowledge, which fueled the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions. Protestant regions of Europe became hubs of technological innovation due to their emphasis on:
  • Education for all: The desire for widespread literacy so that people could read the Bible led to universal schooling, which produced a scientifically literate population.
  • Work as a calling: The Protestant work ethic, as described by sociologists like Max Weber, encouraged diligent labor and innovation as a service to God, leading to unprecedented economic and technological growth.
  • Decentralized power and entrepreneurship: Protestant societies tended to foster decentralized governance and free-market principles, enabling inventors and scientists to flourish without oppressive state control.

4. Christianity and the Ethical Use of Technology

Beyond merely enabling scientific and technological progress, Christianity provided the moral framework for using technology to serve humanity rather than exploit it. The belief in human dignity led to the establishment of ethical principles regarding:
  • Medical ethics: The Christian view of life as sacred laid the foundation for medical ethics, guiding policies on patient care, bioethics, and the development of treatments that respect human life.
  • Technology as a means, not an end: Christianity provided a moral restraint on technology, encouraging its use for the betterment of society rather than destructive ends (e.g., Christian opposition to eugenics in the 20th century).

Conclusion

The explosion of technological and scientific progress in the modern world is not accidental. It is the direct outgrowth of a civilization shaped by Christian assumptions about reason, order, human dignity, and man's role as steward of creation. While technology itself is neutral, its direction has been profoundly shaped by the Christian belief in progress, moral responsibility, and the pursuit of knowledge to glorify God and serve humanity.
 

Clete

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No, I made it clear that I reject his presupposition of the existence of God. His claim that the Christian presupposition of the existence of God is not arbitrary is simply incorrect. Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter or Allah in the Koran. If truth is based on logic and evidence, the claim in a book is not sufficient. He can claim all he wants that my foundation is collapsing but I don't agree. I know well what John 1:1 says but just because it is written does not make it true.
Alright, so your responses just sort of angered me yesterday and I'm really trying hard to not respond so often when my response is more a reaction than anything else and so with that in mind, I'm going to post a new, more dispassionate response to your reaction to the argument I've presented. Here's goes nothin'....

You say that you "reject my presupposition," but rejection is not refutation. Your rejection is based on the claim that my presupposition is arbitrary, but that’s precisely what my argument disproves. The Christian worldview is NOT just another assumption plucked from thin air; it is the necessary foundation for rational thought. My argument demonstrates that in an atheistic worldview, logic is necessarily circular, which is to say, irrational. But if irrationality is false, as you yourself must agree, and atheism is inescapably irrational, then atheism is false, and God must exist because His existence is the rational necessity of the contrary. In other words, either God exists or He does not. If it is proven that the negative case is logically impossible then one must accept the affirmative case. As the fictional Sherlock Holmes would say, "When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

You appeal to logic and evidence, yet you have not justified the validity of logic itself. If truth is based on logic, then tell me, on what grounds is logic valid in an atheistic worldview? How do you account for immaterial, universal, and unchanging laws of logic in a purely material, non-thinking, chaotic universe? You cannot even begin to answer that question without assuming the veracity of the logic you need to prove. That is begging the question, a textbook case of circular reasoning. And if circular reasoning is irrational, which it is, then the very foundation of your argument crumbles beneath you.

Until you can answer this, which you never will (not for lack of trying but because it cannot be done), you are borrowing from my worldview even as you try to argue against it. Every keystroke you make on your computer to type a response to my argument is one more bit of evidence against the atheistic worldview. In short, you refute yourself by virtue of showing up to argue at all.
 

Avajs

Active member
Alright, so your responses just sort of angered me yesterday and I'm really trying hard to not respond so often when my response is more a reaction than anything else and so with that in mind, I'm going to post a new, more dispassionate response to your reaction to the argument I've presented. Here's goes nothin'....

You say that you "reject my presupposition," but rejection is not refutation. Your rejection is based on the claim that my presupposition is arbitrary, but that’s precisely what my argument disproves. The Christian worldview is NOT just another assumption plucked from thin air; it is the necessary foundation for rational thought. My argument demonstrates that in an atheistic worldview, logic is necessarily circular, which is to say, irrational. But if irrationality is false, as you yourself must agree, and atheism is inescapably irrational, then atheism is false, and God must exist because His existence is the rational necessity of the contrary. In other words, either God exists or He does not. If it is proven that the negative case is logically impossible then one must accept the affirmative case. As the fictional Sherlock Holmes would say, "When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

You appeal to logic and evidence, yet you have not justified the validity of logic itself. If truth is based on logic, then tell me, on what grounds is logic valid in an atheistic worldview? How do you account for immaterial, universal, and unchanging laws of logic in a purely material, non-thinking, chaotic universe? You cannot even begin to answer that question without assuming the veracity of the logic you need to prove. That is begging the question, a textbook case of circular reasoning. And if circular reasoning is irrational, which it is, then the very foundation of your argument crumbles beneath you.

Until you can answer this, which you never will (not for lack of trying but because it cannot be done), you are borrowing from my worldview even as you try to argue against it. Every keystroke you make on your computer to type a response to my argument is one more bit of evidence against the atheistic worldview. In short, you refute yourself by virtue of showing up to argue at all.
I stopped being angry here some time ago--not worth the effort. You think Kepler, Newton and Pascal would have the same thoughts today? They would ignore the scientific advances since their time and stick with the Bible? I suspect not if they were as smart as they seem to have been.
Your presumption is your God and the Bible. It is not an argument. If I am missing something please elucidate.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I stopped being angry here some time ago--not worth the effort. You think Kepler, Newton and Pascal would have the same thoughts today? They would ignore the scientific advances since their time and stick with the Bible? I suspect not if they were as smart as they seem to have been.
You can stop saying stupid things of this nature. It only succeeds in making YOU look stupid. I mean, seriously! Is this the "logic and reason" that you base you worldview on? Stupidity.

Your presumption is your God and the Bible.
It is not a presumption as I've already explained.

It is not an argument.
It is an argument and I'm quite certain that you know it is. It's either that or you're the laziest atheist I've ever encountered. Not even 20 seconds with Google would confirm that it is, in fact, not just an argument but a very famous one that, as I also have already pointed out, has been around for THOUSANDS of years! (Most recently brought to the forefront in the early 1900s by Cornelius Van Til), by the way.

If I am missing something please elucidate.
I wish I could believe that this was a real request on your part. I've stated it as clear as day, then I explained it yesterday and then I explained it again in a much more cool headed fashion today.

After about an hour of thought....

So, I decided to do something similar to what I suggested that you do for yourself yesterday. Maybe you just aren't getting the point of the argument and I'm not stating it in a manner that your ears can hear. I asked GPT to explain the argument (as presented in post 76), point for point, as though it were a high school level philosophy teacher explaining to one of his students (i.e. so that someone with no prior background in philosophy could understand). Here's the result....

1. Atheism’s Dilemma: The Self-Defeating Standard

  • Atheists often claim that faith is not a valid way to determine truth. They say that only reason and evidence should be used.
  • But how do they prove that claim?
    • If they use logic to prove it, they are assuming that logic is valid before proving it.
    • If they accept logic without proof, then they are taking it on faith, which contradicts their own rule.

Either way, they have a problem:
  • If they try to prove logic using logic, it’s circular reasoning (which is irrational).
  • If they don’t prove logic and just assume it, they violate their own standard (which is also irrational).

Since atheism cannot rationally justify its own foundation, it collapses into irrationality.




2. The Necessary Existence of God

  • If irrationality is false, then a worldview that leads to irrationality must also be false (since truth must be rational).
  • Atheism, by its inability to justify logic, is necessarily irrational.
  • That means the only way logic can be justified is if there is a rational foundation outside of the atheist's system.
  • That foundation is God. If logic cannot stand without Him, then He must exist because His existence is the only rational alternative to the failure of atheism.



3. Atheists Borrow from the Christian Worldview

  • Even as the atheist denies God, they use logic to do it.
  • But where does logic come from in an atheistic worldview?
    • The universe, according to atheism, is just matter and energy, governed by blind, unguided forces (like evolution and chance).
    • Yet, logic is not material. It is abstract, universal, and unchanging.
    • If the universe is only physical and ever-changing, how can there be universal, immaterial, and unchanging laws of logic?
  • The atheist has no answer to this. The very act of reasoning assumes the existence of something that their worldview cannot justify.



4. Christianity Provides the Only Rational Foundation

  • Unlike atheism, Christianity does not start from a neutral position. It begins with God.
  • The Bible does not try to prove God's existence; it assumes it as the necessary foundation for everything else.
  • More than that, Christianity teaches that God is Logic itself (John 1:1).
  • Because God is rational, and humans are made in His image, we are able to use reason with confidence—we are not just lucky accidents of an irrational universe.
  • That means Christians do not have the problem atheists do. We can trust logic because it reflects the nature of a rational, unchanging God.



5. The Final Challenge: A Choice Between Contradiction and Truth

  • The atheist is standing on a collapsing foundation because their worldview cannot justify the very tools they use to think.
  • They can either:
    1. Cling to irrationality and continue using logic without being able to explain where it comes from.
    2. Recognize the truth—that the ability to reason itself is only possible because God exists.
  • The final plea is simple: Stop borrowing from God to fight against Him. Instead of using reason to deny Him, use it to submit to the One who makes reason possible.



Summary in the Simplest Possible Terms

  1. Atheists say only reason and evidence are valid, but they cannot prove that claim without assuming reason is valid first—this is circular.
  2. If logic cannot be justified in an atheistic worldview, then atheism is irrational and therefore false.
  3. Atheists use logic while denying the very foundation that makes it possible.
  4. Christianity has no such problem because it begins with God, who is the source of logic itself.
  5. The atheist is left with a choice: continue in contradiction, or acknowledge the truth that God is the necessary foundation of reason.
-----------------

Now, as I explained in a previous post, that argument doesn't actually PROVE anything beyond that fact that atheism is irrational and that, therefore, God must exist. The rest is simply me putting forward that the Christian (or Jew for that matter) has no such problem as the atheist has because their worldview has God as it foundational presupposition.

One point about presuppositions...
Every worldview has them—every single one. The issue isn't whether foundational concepts are presupposed, but whether those presuppositions are consistent with the rest of the worldview. The question is whether the worldview can stand on its own terms without contradiction.
Having said that, however, since atheism is irrational and self-defeating, then the existence of God is not merely a "presupposition" in the same way that other worldviews have presuppositions. Rather, it is the necessary (i.e. the logically necessary) starting point for rational thought itself.
A true presupposition is something assumed as a foundation for reasoning, but if a worldview (like atheism) leads to irrationality, then it is not a valid alternative to begin with. That means God's existence is not just a competing assumption among many; it is the unavoidable reality that makes reasoning possible in the first place. So, in that sense, God's existence is not a mere "presupposition" on the Christian's part, but the necessary precondition for logic, rationality, and intelligibility.
 
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7djengo7

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But I’m not buying your God.

God-hater, remember when I recently asked you why you choose to say things like "your God" and to not say, instead, simply, "God"? Instead of responding rationally to my question, you chose to lie and project by saying I "always seem so angry".

Why did you choose to say "I'm not buying your God", and to not say, simply, "I'm not buying God"? It's because of your irrational hatred against God that you Christ-haters habitually do that sort of thing. It's you pathetically lashing out against God, showing yourself to be the fool you are.

By your phrase, "your God", are you referring to God? Yes or No?

If Yes, then what motivates you to not say, simply, "God", rather than saying "your God"?
 

7djengo7

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Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter
You show yourself to be a self-defeating idiot by asking for evidence that the Bible is true WHILE, out the other side of your mouth, saying that the Bible is fiction. Rationally-thinking people don't ask for evidence that things they believe are fiction are true. Are you so stupid that you would go around saying "Do you have evidence that the novel, Harry Potter, is true?"

Bringing up works of fiction is never analogous to -- and is rarely, if ever, relevant to -- talking about the Bible. But, please, Professor, do tell us: to what "proposition" are you referring by your silly phrase "the presupposition of Lord Voldemort"? If you're not referring to any proposition -- a thing that is either true or false -- then you're not referring to any presupposition.
 

7djengo7

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Why do you always seem so angry?
Do you believe I'm angry, or are you just saying that? If you believe I'm angry, on what "evidence" is your belief that I'm angry "supported"? Or, are you just presupposing that I'm angry?

Do you believe I'm angry? Yes or No? If No, then what motivates you to say to me things like "Why do you always seem so angry?"

Saying "You seem angry" to someone in a text-based internet forum is kind of akin to saying to them "You seem to have a nice singing voice" or "You seem obese".
 
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