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This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
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- Thread starter carolus magnus
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Resisting the urge to keep laughing
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If you weren't illogical and irrational, you wouldn't have that problem.
just make the
point
Sheesh. How boring.
It's logic! Plain reason!
Logic is the solitary means by which the chaos of raw data is distilled into coherent meaning. It is by the rigorous application of reason that we sift truth from mere noise, transforming abstract symbols into meaning, comprehension and communication. In a world where words without structure and every wild-eyed lunatic presents stupidity as fact, logic remains the sole beacon guiding us from confusion to clarity, from conjecture to fact, from premise to conclusion and from ignorance and superstition to knowledge and understanding.
There is NO OTHER MEANS by which your mind works. Reason is the scaffolding upon which the mind structures all knowledge. It is the only framework through which thought can be structured where meaning is the result. Every argument, including one that purports to challenge this truth, must rely on logical principles to form its critique. Any attempt to refute logic openly employs it, thus affirming logic's irrefragable nature and fundamental role as the exclusive engine of our cognition.
So then, given this bit of apparent common ground, it seems to me that the atheist's worldview is predicated on the notion that nothing is to be merely believed; that ALL truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason. Would you agree with that? If not, I insist that you explain how it could be otherwise.
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If logic is the only way our mind works and the only framework through which thought can be structured where meaning is the result then all truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason no matter your world view, correct?
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Indeed, some world views are illogical... like atheistism.
Not in the way you mean it. I'll explain shortly.
Just to be clear before moving on, was this your endorsement of the idea that all truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason? It's not a trick question or anything. That is what atheists typically believe. I just don't want to assume anything. It leads to a lot of wasted time where we have to go back and actually establish things that were wrongly assumed.
It is usually not their logic that is flawed per se, it is their presuppositions.
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It's both.
Sure. is it what you believe as well?
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You really enjoy playing games, don't you?
No.
The statement "All truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason." is itself a truth claim.
How would you establish that claim?
No clue. Why don’t you tell me
No.
The statement "All truth claims must be established by means of logic and reason." is itself a truth claim.
How would you establish that claim?
You, along with all atheists, declare that faith is out of bounds; that all truth must be established by reason, yet you cannot establish that claim without assuming the validity of the very logic you seek to establish. That's an act of circularity called begging the question. If, on the other hand, you accept it without proof, then you violate your own standard. Either way, no foundation can be given and your atheistic worldview collapses into irrationality. Atheism is therefore unavoidably irrational (i.e. false) and thus God must exist because of the rational impossibility of the contrary.
The very principle by which you reject faith requires faith to stand. The very logic by which you deny God demands Him to exist. The very reasoning by which you resist Him proves that without Him, reason itself is impossible. You are not merely trapped in contradiction, you are trapped in the inescapable reality that only God makes sense of the very mind that you use to deny Him.
The Christian has no such problem because we begin with God's existence. Notice that the Bible never attempts to prove God's existence, it simply declares it: 'In the beginning, God…' (Gen. 1:1). The Christian worldview presupposes God, not as an arbitrary assumption, but as the necessary foundation for all rational thought. More than that, it presupposes that God is Logic itself and that Jesus Christ is Logic incarnate.
John 1:1—'In the beginning was the Word (Logos: Logic, Reason), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...
Because of this, we can use logic and sound reason with full confidence in its validity, without circularity, without contradiction, and without borrowing from another system. Indeed, biblical Christianity is the only fully rational worldview, for all others must, by necessity, steal from it even to utter a single intelligible syllable. The atheist cannot even state his opposition without tacitly relying on truths that only Christianity has the rational ground to support.
So I ask you: Will you continue to stand on a foundation that collapses beneath your feet, or will you acknowledge the only worldview that makes reason itself possible? You have seen the contradiction, and now you must decide; cling to irrationality, or submit to the truth that has been evident from the beginning (Romans 1:18-22). The God you use reason to deny is the very One who gives you the ability to reason at all. Stop borrowing from Him to fight against Him. Instead, surrender to the reality that only in Christ can your intellect, your logic, and your very existence find their true and rightful foundation.
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@Avajs,
I feel compelled to thank you. I have been here doing this for more than two decades and in all that time, you are the first, the very first atheist who has stuck around long enough to allow me to make that full argument. They ALWAYS vanish! They show up with all the bravado and sass they can muster, thinking that they're dealing with a bunch of idiot Christians who obvious couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag and as soon as they meet intellectual resistance with a modicum of substance, they vanish like farts in the wind.
Thank you for not vanishing!
I feel compelled to thank you. I have been here doing this for more than two decades and in all that time, you are the first, the very first atheist who has stuck around long enough to allow me to make that full argument. They ALWAYS vanish! They show up with all the bravado and sass they can muster, thinking that they're dealing with a bunch of idiot Christians who obvious couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag and as soon as they meet intellectual resistance with a modicum of substance, they vanish like farts in the wind.
Thank you for not vanishing!
You are welcome. But I’m not buying your God. Your presupposition is that God exists and it is the God of the Bible. You base your understanding of the world on a cobbled together book that is without a consistent reading. It has led humans to acceptance of ignorance, numerous wars, irrational thought, etc all because one must believe it or be subject to ever lasting punishment. No thanks.
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You completely ignored the post that Clete made earlier.
Instead of dodging, address what Clete said.
No, I made it clear that I reject his presupposition of the existence of God. His claim that the Christian presupposition of the existence of God is not arbitrary is simply incorrect. Basing that presupposition on a declaration in the Bible is no different than basing one's life on the presupposition of Lord Voldemort in Harry Potter or Allah in the Koran. If truth is based on logic and evidence, the claim in a book is not sufficient. He can claim all he wants that my foundation is collapsing but I don't agree. I know well what John 1:1 says but just because it is written does not make it true.