Unconditional Election: True or False?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to your ideas a person is saved and placed into the Body of Christ BEFORE THEY BELIEVE THE GOSPEL!
You are totally confused because no one is saved prior to believing the gospel:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
beloved57
Well-known member
Yeah, see above post. A Person is saved in Christ by Purpose and Grace before the world began 2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Believing the Gospel comes later. Only a saved person can believe the Gospel. The Gospel is hidden from them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So according to your ideas a person receives salvation even if he has not believed!
But you reject this verse which demonstrates that it is through the LORD's foreknowledge that a person is saved before the world began:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
Bible: No salvation apart from faith
beloved57: Salvation attained apart from faith
Jerry: Salvation obtained by faith as a result of the LORD's foreknowledge
Of course you cling to what the Calvinist's teach every single time when that position is contradicted by the Scriptures. Your final authority is not the Scriptures but instead your little handbook of Calvinism.
That is not what Paul thought. Here is his answer to how a person can be saved:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
Your answer would be, "If you are the elect you are already saved so you don't have to do anything!"
Last edited:
beloved57
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul said that in order to be saved one must believe.
You say that the elect are saved before they believe!
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe Paul ! Paul wrote that the Gospel is hidden from them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
Also men whom Christ died for are made righteous by His One obedience Rom 5:19
Epoisses
New member
We are placed into Christ and saved before we believe. It's called the incarnation.
Epoisses
New member
Paul also says that because of Christ the free gift has come upon all men before they believed.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you saying that a man can be saved before he believes?
Epoisses
New member
Yes, in Christ the whole world has been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Your worthless free-will doesn't count for anything.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then why did Paul answered this question in the way that he did?:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31)
.
Epoisses
New member
We are required to believe the gospel in our physical lives to receive what Christ accomplished in his physical life. Do you see how that works? We believe in the finished work of Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Earlier you said:
I responded by saying:
To which you said:
What about your earlier statement that "the whole world has been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago by the life, death and resurrection of Christ."
Did all those of the whole world believe the gospel in their physical lives?
I responded by saying:
Then why did Paul answered this question in the way that he did?:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
To which you said:
What about your earlier statement that "the whole world has been saved, past tense, 2000 years ago by the life, death and resurrection of Christ."
Did all those of the whole world believe the gospel in their physical lives?
Epoisses
New member
You are destitute of the Holy Spirit so the incarnation of Christ is just a mystery that you will never understand. When Christ died I died with him and when he rose from the grave I rose in newness of life.
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching!
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching. The whole world has not been saved in Christ, that is a lie!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are ignorant about what the Scriptures teach because it is only believers who are saved! You refuse to believe the answer given by Paul and those with him to the question of what a person must do to be saved:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
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Conditional Election?
Conditional Election?
If election unto salvation is not unconditional, then it must be conditioned upon something. You have claimed it is conditioned on your ability to choose wisely to believe, and when pressed "Why you and not your neighbor?" you finally admit it is because you were more open to the Good News than was your neighbor. After all, if everyone is equally given prevenient grace by God to be able to decide wisely, then one's wise choice to believe ultimately comes down to something unique about the individual that chose wisely.
Please explain what in the below does not apply to your view, for I see your view to be a claim that you are not at all like us poor, presumptuous, Calvinists, because...
1. You were born with a glorious free will
2. You were born with a power by which you can turn to God by yourself
3. You have improved your grace given to you by God that enabled you to believe or not to believe
4. If everybody had done the same with their same grace as you have done, they all would have been saved
5. You know that God does not make you willing if you are not willing
6. It was not God's grace that made you differerent from your neighbor, for all have been given the same grace
7. You made use of what was given you, and others did not
8. That you did so explains the difference between you and others
What have I missed? There are eight claims you have made or implied in the past above. Please explain for me how I have not understood you in each of the above claims.
AMR
Conditional Election?
Actually the doctrine from Scripture was taught well before the term "Calvinist" arrived on the scene. Early Church Fathers advocated the same, as did Augustine, and others, especially the Reformers. Try not to give Calvinists all the credit, Jerry.
If election unto salvation is not unconditional, then it must be conditioned upon something. You have claimed it is conditioned on your ability to choose wisely to believe, and when pressed "Why you and not your neighbor?" you finally admit it is because you were more open to the Good News than was your neighbor. After all, if everyone is equally given prevenient grace by God to be able to decide wisely, then one's wise choice to believe ultimately comes down to something unique about the individual that chose wisely.
Please explain what in the below does not apply to your view, for I see your view to be a claim that you are not at all like us poor, presumptuous, Calvinists, because...
1. You were born with a glorious free will
2. You were born with a power by which you can turn to God by yourself
3. You have improved your grace given to you by God that enabled you to believe or not to believe
4. If everybody had done the same with their same grace as you have done, they all would have been saved
5. You know that God does not make you willing if you are not willing
6. It was not God's grace that made you differerent from your neighbor, for all have been given the same grace
7. You made use of what was given you, and others did not
8. That you did so explains the difference between you and others
What have I missed? There are eight claims you have made or implied in the past above. Please explain for me how I have not understood you in each of the above claims.
AMR