Rosenritter
New member
Something that I don't understand from your clarification, is that if the Holy Spirit is (emphasis on "is") God's mind, identity, spirit, thinking, values, wisdom, and power, then what is it not (emphasis on "not") ... ?
Trinity Proof Scriptures
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Something that I don't understand from your clarification, is that if the Holy Spirit is (emphasis on "is") God's mind, identity, spirit, thinking, values, wisdom, and power, then what is it not (emphasis on "not") ... ?
7djengo7
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In Philippians 2:9 KJV, what do we read? Do we read,
Or, do we read,
Even your non-Bible, your "New World Translation", has this:
and not this:
What name, do you suppose, is above every other name?
Of the two names, "Lord" (Matthew 4:10 KJV) and "Lord" (Philippians 2:11), which (if either) do you suppose is above the other?
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name"?
Or, do we read,
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above ALMOST every name"?
Even your non-Bible, your "New World Translation", has this:
"For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name"
and not this:
"For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above ALMOST every other name"
What name, do you suppose, is above every other name?
Of the two names, "Lord" (Matthew 4:10 KJV) and "Lord" (Philippians 2:11), which (if either) do you suppose is above the other?
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't see that as proof that He is NOT God.
NWL
Active member
This post is not worthy of a reply as you didn't deal with the point I presented at all.
NWL
Active member
Lets see if the principles that I reason are meaningless and inconsistent, answer these questions, if you could, based on them.
Who did Jesus say created Man according to Mark 10:6 , himself or God?
(Mark 10:5,6) "..Jesus said to them...However, from the beginning of creation, ‘He made them male and female...Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.."
According to Hebrews 1:1,2 who created the world, including man?
(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..[God] at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the world.
NWL
Active member
Have you never sinned on becoming a Christian, if you have, then who is the person who redeems you according to 1 John 2:1? Please state your answer.
If your answer is Jesus then how does he offer a sacrifice for that sin if he is not high priest, since high priests were the only ones who could offer sacrifice for sins on behalf the people of Israel?
If you can't offer a decent response to this there is no point in replying.
You're bringing up a totally different issue (sharing and non-sharing of glory) which I will address if you want me to, all you need to do is answer the question which you did not do, I'm curious what you answer will be. The questions again:
Does Isaiah 64:8 say that Jehovah is the Father, yes or no?
When every knee on heaven and earth bends to Jesus (Phil 2:8-11), to whose glory is it to, his own or the Father?
NWL
Active member
I might be wrong and Dartman can correct me if I am, but I think he meant that the HS is God in the sense that the HS is part of God. This is clear when he states "the HS is a attribute of God", yes he makes the statement "[the HS] is God but clarifies this by saying "more specifically part of God"
Dartman said:
NWL
Active member
What you call flimflam and scripture in its simple form, and depsite my reasoning being "flimflam" you cannot refute it, have another go so that others can see:
To whose glory does every knee bending to Jesus go to, his own or the Fathers?
(Philippians 2:8-11) "..More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."
NWL
Active member
You raise a good point. However what you miss is that Jesus was quoting the old testament when speaking to Satan, in the account he states to Satan “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is the Lord your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
As you can see Jesus was clearly quoting scripture, hence his said "it is written" Jesus was quoting from Deut 6:13 that states "Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear." (Deuteronomy 6:13)
As we have been talking about, Jehovah is the Father,(Isaiah 64:8) ".But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.".
So Jesus wasn't stating that we should worship himself when speaking to Satan, but rather Jehovah the Father. Jesus wasnot "the Lord" to which Jesus Christ himself refers to in Matt 4:10, its the Father Jehovah.
NWL
Active member
Jesus worships the Father. Jesus was speaking about the father as detailed in my previous post (post #529).
Someone who claims to not sin after becoming a Christian is a liar and doesn't read his Bible.
Christians are not redeemed according to 1 John 2:1.
Again, taking things out of context will cause you nothing but confusion when reading the Bible.
Once again, your paradigm of beliefs has clouded your thinking.
What sacrifice would Jesus give that would redeem the whole world if He were merely a man?
There is nothing, as King David wrote:
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever—That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. . . . But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah - Psalm 49:7-9,15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm49:7-9,15&version=NKJV
The only sacrifice that could pay the price of sin (which has eternal consequences) is someone who has eternal value, a man's death satisfies the needs of justice, but his death cannot redeem another man from his sin. So, even if Christ (if He were only a man) were to live a perfect life and then die, His life ould only valuable enough to redeem His own life, and no one else's.
BUT
Since Jesus is NOT just a man, which would make the entire cross pointless, but God Himself in the flesh, God sacrificing Himself to pay for the sin of man is MORE than enough to redeem ALL OF MANKIND, because God has the most value, and His value is eternal, because He has existed from of old, from everlasting to everlasting, His years never end.
He is the most valuable thing in all of existence. Only HE HIMSELF could pay the price for sin. That's why HE HIMSELF came willingly to die for us.
See, your problem is that you think that the whole Bible applies to and is written just for you.
Thing is... It's not!
If you think that it is, you need to get the bigger picture. Change your paradigm of thinking, because as it stands now, you're walking on thin ice above the flames coming out of the pit of Hell, which is a real place, and it will burn for eternity with you in it, unless you repent towards God and ask Him to save you from your sins, because there is NOTHING you can do to save yourself.
Your answer is this:
Jesus Himself, being God, the Word, in the flesh, offered HIMSELF as a sacrifice, the spotless Lamb of God.
No.
It says the the LORD is OUR [the Nation of Israel's] Father.
Yes.
NWL
Active member
But you're totally ignoring the title "God" as shown separate from Jesus in the chapter. Also, the expression of Jesus "coming" or "coming quickly" is completely different as the "one who is, was, and is to come".
Once again, God is the one who gave Jesus the revelation, thus Jesus is not the God who gave Jesus the revelation.It is clear the revelation came from God, was given to Jesus, who passed it to the Angels to reveal it to John.
How does is my example not in line with the verse?
"..A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him... he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John.."
God is mentioned in Rev 1:8, based on the context of Rev 1:1 this would place the God who gave the revelation to Jesus as that one. Thus, the God mentioned in Rev 1:1, who we know to be the Father (Rev 1:6) is the "one who is, was and is coming". Why is in ever other place in Revelation God is always separate from Jesus, can you show me a single place where is clearly calls Jesus God in the entire book of Revelation?
Also, how is it possible that the F&L is in reference to his deity when it states he became dead?
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NWL
Active member
I've already debunked this. The "Lord" mentioned in Matt 4:10 is father as shown by the quoted verse of the old testament he was reciting to Satan, Jesus was talking about the Father Jehovah when saying who to worship.
(Matthew 4:10) "..Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is the Lord your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service..’”
(Deuteronomy 6:13) "..Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear.."
NWL
Active member
NWL said:
Show me in scripture the rule or idea that some titles can only ever refer to one person as you suggest? You assume this is true and so your reasoning is based on a false premise. We see the opposite of this in scripture. For example, scripture states there is "only one savior" (Isaiah 43:11), despite this there are many saviors mentioned in scripture as saviors despite there being ONLY one savior, such as Ehud and Othʹni·el (Judges 3:15, Judges 3:9). Now, nowhere in scripture do we find, "there is only one first and the last" yet here YOU are claiming no other person can be called "the first and the last" in any sense at all. Even if scripture did state "there is only one F&L" , the example of Isaiah 43:11, "only one savior" shows this still would not have to be the case.
Moreover, taking the lord name in vain is a corrupted translation of the text as it uses "lord" over the personal name of God YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah, the rendering is rightly “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way"(Exo 20:7). You use the corrupted version of the text in an attempt to show that titles of YHWH cannot be shared with another even though the verse you used was about using Gods personal name.
Point 2 is not a point at at, because we are talking about the present, can I say today the 24th January 2019 that Adam was the F&L human who was made out of the dust of the earth.
Point 3 - It is not absurd, it is simple and exactly my point, there are thousands of person who could be referred to as the F&L in regards to thousands of different reasons. Another example, Satan is the first adversary of God and he will be the last adversary of God, Satan can be referred to as the F&L in a sense. My point is that the titles when applied to people go as far at the context, Jesus is F&L in a different sense to that of YHWH.
You seem to disagree with me on point 1, which I have shown to not be an excuse to not answer the question and then agree that F&L can be applied to people but say its absurd. Which one is it, can others be called the F&L or can't they?
NWL said:
NWL said:
Your answer makes no sense. According to Acts 17:31 If the father judges the world through Jesus Christ then it is obvious he judges no one personally since Jesus is the one doing it on behalf of the Father, would you not agree?
This is also what John 5:22 is stating, that the Father is judging no one personally, since he is judging through Jesus, with Jesus being the judge who acts on the Fathers behalf.
Please clarify.
There can only be one ultimate Judge, is it the Father or Jesus?
You did not answer my 4th question, please do so.NWL said:
And I did object before, I expressed how the verse doesn't say they came to life but they were raised out of the ground, probably by means of the earthquake spoken of just before it states they were raised. Based on this please re-attempt the question or show me how they were raised "to life" after reading my full response in the below link.
(Post containing my response http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Proof-Scriptures/page23&p=5310573#post5310573
NWL
Active member
NWL said:
Good, then how are you sins forgiven, who pays your debt when you do sin?
NWL said:
So you claim when Isaiah 64:8 says "Jehovah is our Father" this only applied to the nation of Israel, interesting. Have followers of Christ becoming adopted by God by becoming Abraham's seed, namely Israel?
(Galatians 3:29) Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.
NWL said:
You have not answered the question, the question was not a yes or no one. Please read it carefully and try again.
NWL
Active member
So you believe in once saved always saved? In what sense does Jesus become a helper when we do sin?
(1 John 2:1) "..My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ.."
NWL said:
So you're saying that Jacob's 12 Sons, who are known as "the nation of Israel" weren't the nation of Israel because they weren't Abraham's actual son but grandson? You've kind of got yourself in a pickle here buddy. You do realize the greek word for "offspring" means "descendants" as some translations render the verse (https://biblehub.com/greek/4690.htm) and does not relate to immediate family lines.
Abrahams had Isaac, who was father to Jacob/Israel who was father the the 12 who became the nation of Israel. Who exactly is Galatians referring to when it mentions Abraham's seed/offspring from your understanding if not the nation of Israel?
NWL said:
I haven't heard of it before, please do explain exactly what you mean by it so myself and others can understand how "yes" answers the questions of "whether it is Jesus or it is the Father who receives glory at Phil 2:8-11.
(Philippians 2:9-11) "..For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."
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Once again, taking things out of context:
The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, - 2 John 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2John1:1&version=NKJV
Uh, no, that's not what I said.
The nation of Israel is one nation, that comes specifically from Jacob, aka Israel.
Abraham was told that he would be the father of MANY nations.
“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. - Genesis 17:4-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis17:4-5&version=NKJV
We (Christians) are heirs through ADOPTION under ABRAHAM, NOT Jacob aka Israel.
:blabla:
Listen here, "buddy," you don't know "the Greek" well enough to school me. So go take your seat at the back of the classroom.
:duh:
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV
Paul is saying that we are ABRAHAM's seed. There is no mention of Jacob, aka Israel, at all.
Or have you forgotten that Abraham had two wives and a concubine?
None of this comes from my own understanding.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Inclusive+or
Yes/No, 1 John 2:1 KJV, is not about me, is not written to me, or any other member of the boc, in this dispensation. And you, in deception, left out the verses, preceding, and following.....
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
You keep all of his commandments, today, do you, rummy? No? Then you are a liar.
See how that works?
What sin? What sins? The Lord Jesus Christ died for all of my sins(plural), every last one of them, depositing them in hell, and became a sin offering for me, being judged, condemned, in my place, as who I was "in Adam," was executed at Calvary-dead. I, a dead man, cannot be put on trial again, as that would be double jeopardy, and pervert the justice of God. Not only have I been forgiven all of my trespasses(Colossians 2:13 KJV), Christ dying for my sin debt(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV...), I have been given the righteousness of God, because I am "in Christ."
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117813-quot-The-Big-Switch-quot
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...e-s-children-of-the-devil-Cain-Jr-s-What-sins
Slower....follow the bouncing ball, Mitch. He was my High Priest, when I was a sinner, "in Adam." Now that I am "in Christ," the LORD God, when He looks down upon me, sees only His Christ, as I am in Him, and sees only the righteousness of God, in Him. He is now my advocate, not my High priest. The High Priest is for the lost person-you, given your above "testimony.".
You hate that, and are grinding your wolf molars, as you read this.
Another wolf is exposed.
Get saved, wolfie.
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My posts stand, and picks apart your "argument," as I gave you chapter, verse, in which to soak your brain, Scarecrow, re. "glory," and re. to whom shall every knee bow-the LORD of hosts, the Lord Jesus Christ, God, in the flesh, the man, Christ Jesus. You will bow down eventually, bend that knee, and confess Him as the LORD God-you will have no choice.
Can you dig it?
Good.