Traditional Salvation Violates God’s Justice

Bociferous

New member
Since the Bible says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the coming judgment of the wicked, and since Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed and not just the sin components of Sodom and Gomorrah, we can know for certain that the coming judgment of the guilty will be complete destruction, just as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah.

I hope this helps you.
Hello Timotheos,

In saying we can know for certain that the guilty will be completely destroyed, are you suggesting that the entire person, if he is guilty, will be destroyed? In other words are you suggesting the "standard" Annihilationist view is correct?

Also curious to know what it is you suppose I need help with...?
 

Bociferous

New member
The point is like you sitting in the middle of the traffic. You have free will to do anything you want. God accomplished what He wanted by arranging circumstances around you. He arranged stalled cars to be all around you. He got YOU to stay at a single POINT for a little bit to delay you from getting home on time to enjoy your wife's hot meal. He tested your wife's patience through circumstances. You and your wife had free will to do anything you naturally desired. You could have gotten out of your car to walk home but your meal still got cold. God knew a car was going to run a red light at 100 miles per hour in your future. If God didn't arrange circumstances around you, you would have been at that intersection and killed by the speeding robber who God also arranged the bank to be there for the robber to rob. God also put the same bank for the members to deposit money. You see, you're happy, the robber is happy, the member is happy and God is Happy.
.
.
.
All four are happy!
.
It's according to God's pleasure He let you live another day. Instead you complain to God and boastfully claim you're superman with your own self applied non existent free will.

If God is love, he is also reality.
.
.
When will you return to reality?
TB, I still can't figure out who you're aiming your posts at. If it's me, I have no idea what on God's green earth you're talking about.
 

Bociferous

New member
Hello again JG,

Jesus said only a few will find it. Agreed it is the truth that sets us free, Again Jesus said, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples and then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32

You seem to just take out of God's word what you like.
Jesus also said destroy this temple and in three days I'll rebuild it. This comment appears to have been used against Him by His detractors at His mock trial. His enemies were harsh literalists who missed the metaphor because their minds and hearts were stone cold and could only "hear" the literal.

I notice that like many others, you've not offered a rational rebuttal to the proposition in the op that God shows us metaphorically why the destruction or eternal separation of any individual in whom any good exists is a violation of His perfect justice. Id be interested to hear your argument if you have one.

How could a murderer who is actively murdering and is killed become freed?
Simple. Like this: "A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice." (Isa 42:3) In the op God shows how He brings forth justice, despite the doctrines of men.
 

Samie

New member
Hi Samie,

. . .

This process describes not only salvation, when it takes place in this life it's sanctification. If we're fortunate we suffer "hell on earth" because hellfire is purification. To the extent we hear and follow Christ Jesus' voice in this life, we're 'cleansed' to a state of saving faith so we can be changed in the twinkling of an eye (1Cor 15:51-52) upon entering physical death while the unsaved squarely face the terrible cleansing fire of God's presence, where He shows no mercy (Jer 11:11, Ezek 7:4, 9:10) until every last bit of falsity is burned up, the sinner is made wholly true and the individual's name restored to the book of life for eternity.

How come? Because nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [the New Jerusalem], but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life Rev 21:27...i.e., God is pure Truth and no false thing may enter His presence. His pure Truth essence is a roaring lake of fire to the false value in human spirit. Jesus died not that we don't die for our sins (Rom 6:23) but that when we kill ourselves with our sin He lovingly restores us.

Do you see why I didn't answer your post directly? You weren't properly following the metaphor. What I posted in the op is quite coherent friend--it's the doctrines of annihilation and eternal punishment that are incoherent.
OK. That's fine with me, brother.

Again, when you said "Abraham was right--it's wrong of a perfect God to destroy good with bad. God is pure Good, to destroy good violates His justice" and then followed it up with "God always destroys or annihilates only good, never bad parts" but in the metaphor it's the bad that were destroyed, is that NOT incoherence?

If you can't even see or rather refuse to acknowledge the incoherence in your own application of what you say is a metaphor but which actually is a REALITY, then be happy with it and congratulate yourself of having developed a theology glaringly against Scriptures.

There is NOWHERE in Scriptures there will be restoration of names into the book of life after having been blotted out from it. And restoration of names is not incoherence, I agree. It is it's older brother and it's name is FALSEHOOD.
 

Bociferous

New member
when you said "Abraham was right--it's wrong of a perfect God to destroy good with bad. God is pure Good, to destroy good violates His justice" and then followed it up with "God always destroys or annihilates only good, never bad parts" but in the metaphor it's the bad that were destroyed, is that NOT incoherence?
Okay now I see what you're saying. You identified a typo. How could you read all that I posted to that point and not pick up on the fact that the switch of "good" with "bad" was a simple typo? Because of the mistake, yes, that sentence would be incoherent with the rest of my posts. Typographical errors sometimes do that.

There is NOWHERE in Scriptures there will be restoration of names into the book of life after having been blotted out from it.
Correct. And since there is also nowhere in Scripture that it says there will not be a restoration of names into the book of life after they're blotted out from it, your point is empty. When Scripture is silent on certain points it requires interpretation by means of the use of other passages, principles and concepts to piece together what is meant.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Correct. And since there is also nowhere in Scripture that it says there will not be a restoration of names into the book of life after they're blotted out from it, your point is empty. When Scripture is silent on certain points it requires interpretation by means of the use of other passages, principles and concepts to piece together what is meant.

Which name?

Maybe the one written on the white stone?
 

Samie

New member
Okay now I see what you're saying. You identified a typo. How could you read all that I posted to that point and not pick up on the fact that the switch of "good" with "bad" was a simple typo? Because of the mistake, yes, that sentence would be incoherent with the rest of my posts. Typographical errors sometimes do that.


Correct. And since there is also nowhere in Scripture that it says there will not be a restoration of names into the book of life after they're blotted out from it, your point is empty. When Scripture is silent on certain points it requires interpretation by means of the use of other passages, principles and concepts to piece together what is meant.
After refusal to acknowledge incoherence, you now switch to typo defense. You had been unmasked, my brother. In the metaphor, God first removed the good parts and then destroyed the bad. In your application, the bad parts were destroyed without first removing the good. You are forced into such scenario because of your UNBELIEF in the Biblical account that those whose names were blotted out from the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. You instead teach that those blotted out will be rewritten.

The Bible is replete with references that when Christ comes again He will reward each one according to what each has done, and when the good had been separated, the bad will be destroyed. The wheat gathered into the kingdom, the tares burned. The sheep gathered in, the goats burned. The righteous ushered into heaven, the unrighteous made to suffer the wrath of God and finally thrown into the lake of fire.

And I guess, I have to agree with you that your position is NOT incoherent. It is FALSEHOOD.
 

Timotheos

New member
Hello Timotheos,

In saying we can know for certain that the guilty will be completely destroyed, are you suggesting that the entire person, if he is guilty, will be destroyed? In other words are you suggesting the "standard" Annihilationist view is correct?

Also curious to know what it is you suppose I need help with...?

I'm just trying to help, that's all. Look over the account of the Destruction of Sodom. How many half persons were destroyed? Just make a rough estimate. 100? 500?
ZERO? Yes, Zero. Out of all the people who were destroyed, each one of them was destroyed. Not 1/4 of the person destroyed, not 1/2, not 3/4, not 99%.

According to the Bible, the wicked will be destroyed. You call that the Standard Annihilationist View.
I call it, "What the Bible says."
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Hello again JG,


Jesus also said destroy this temple and in three days I'll rebuild it. This comment appears to have been used against Him by His detractors at His mock trial. His enemies were harsh literalists who missed the metaphor because their minds and hearts were stone cold and could only "hear" the literal.

I notice that like many others, you've not offered a rational rebuttal to the proposition in the op that God shows us metaphorically why the destruction or eternal separation of any individual in whom any good exists is a violation of His perfect justice. Id be interested to hear your argument if you have one.


Simple. Like this: "A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice." (Isa 42:3) In the op God shows how He brings forth justice, despite the doctrines of men.

We could metaphorically interpret scripture to anything we or Satan chooses. It makes it all meaningless. In guesing you believe satan to be a metaphor.

His blood is offered as an attoning, reconciling gift for those who accept it. His blood makes us acceptable to be filled with Him, nothing else. He satisfied His Justice His holiness with His blood. His blood, His love, His Spirit is meant to transform, not metaphorically.
 

Bociferous

New member
Hello Samie,

Let’s examine your last post carefully and see if your arguments are valid.

1. Samie claims that I refused...
to acknowledge incoherence
...despite my statement in post #65:
Because of the mistake, yes, that sentence would be incoherent with the rest of my posts.
Samie's claim is false.

2. Samie claims that...
...you now switch to typo defense. You had been unmasked
Let's look at the evidence. Typo was a weak term, the more accurate one is "transpose", something I find myself doing from time to timee in my old age Here's a sampling of my posts on the subject of the disposition of good/bad or righteous/unrighteous or true/false parts...note my emphasis in bold...

post #1

A. He will not destroy a whole (Sodom) in which any good exists;

Salvation is revealed to be the removal and destruction of the false or bad elements of the soul (as shown in the Gen 18-19 passages) and their restoration or resurrection to a good or true state

Abraham pointed out that the destruction of any good violates the perfection of His justice. God then confirms Abraham’s point by separating good (righteous) parts from bad before destroying the latter.

Both Annihilationism and eternal punishment violate the perfection of God’s justice, the former by destroying good and the latter by eternal separation and punishment of wholes (persons) in whom at least some good arguably still exists. [arguing that only good remains is of course tantamount to affirming only bad is destroyed]

and reveals that because all are enlightened (Jn 1:9) destroying wicked components from human essence

post #8

elemental badness is removed from spirit

post #19
[separation of righteous and unrighteous elements prior to destruction of the latter]

post #41

it's wrong of a perfect God to destroy good with bad. God is pure Good, to destroy good violates His justice.

His justice is preserved when He moves His destruction and eternal separation from individuals to bad parts within each human spirit .

post #49

good and goodness--as effects of falsity being removed and the soul restored to a a higher truth state--are from God

post #51

What happened to all the falsity inside us that caused us to be cowards, to lie, not have faith, murder and be immoral? It is annihilated in God's loving, fiery presence.

He shows no mercy (Jer 11:11, Ezek 7:4, 9:10) until every last bit of falsity is burned up, the sinner is made wholly true

The simple fact is, in everything I posted with one exception--the one Samie uses to suggest that he destroys my presentation and has allowed him to "unmask" me--shows that have stated clearly that God destroys bad only. This was apparent in the op and was repeated often in posts thereafter.

In fact, I did accidentally transpose "good" and "bad" in post 41: "God always destroys or annihilates only good, never bad parts" In light of the evidence, Samie, your second claim is therefore not merely false but mean-spirited and renders your own arguments chaotic and nearly incomprehensible.

Given your lack of charity, intellectual honesty and ability to formulate rational arguments there's no reason to try to discuss further with you in this thread. God bless you in your walk.
 

Samie

New member
Given your lack of charity, intellectual honesty and ability to formulate rational arguments there's no reason to try to discuss further with you in this thread. God bless you in your walk.
I don't think what you call my "lack of charity, intellectual honesty and ability to formulate rational arguments" is valid accusation. It should had been me telling you that, brother.

In my last and other posts, your lack of charity and intellectual dishonesty forced you to skip the rational arguments I presented that unmasked the falsity of your position. You know yours is a losing proposition, that's why you refuse to discuss with me further. Here's an example from my last post:
In the metaphor, God first removed the good parts and then destroyed the bad. In your application, the bad parts were destroyed without first removing the good. You are forced into such scenario because of your UNBELIEF in the Biblical account that those whose names were blotted out from the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. You instead teach that those blotted out will be rewritten.

The Bible is replete with references that when Christ comes again He will reward each one according to what each has done, and when the good had been separated, the bad will be destroyed. The wheat gathered into the kingdom, the tares burned. The sheep gathered in, the goats burned. The righteous ushered into heaven, the unrighteous made to suffer the wrath of God and finally thrown into the lake of fire.
I respect your refusal not to continue discussing with me. There's no use anyway. You had been unmasked. Again, I agree with you that you are not being incoherent. You are presenting FALSEHOOD.

May your eyes be opened to truth so you can see the falsity of your proposition.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
What a strange post. Was Jesus lying when he said his Spirit would be available in the Last Day?

:readthis:

"And the King will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Then He will say to those on His left, depart from me you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:40-41

Does it sound as strange coming from Jesus?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
"And the King will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Then He will say to those on His left, depart from me you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" Matthew 25:40-41

Does it sound as strange coming from Jesus?


Did you know parables are not literal?
 

Samie

New member
Why would someone's name not be in Christ's book?
It was blotted out.

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 
Top