Total Depravity, Totally Refuted

Brother Ducky

New member
OK.
Rather than just assert your point, People have free-will and can choose to follow Christ, why don't you present a Biblical case for free-will?
 

andyc

New member
As I've explained a few times before, I believe the reformers came to the false conclusion of total depravity by making the simple mistake of assuming Adam and Eve were created in a state of moral righteousness. This is not the case at all, because it was when they ate the forbidden fruit that they were enlightened in their knowledge of good and evil. And so Adam and Eve were created in a state of moral innocence, similar to animals today. Adam and Eve could not be tempted with what was morally wrong if they were unable to understand right and wrong morally in the first place. God simply said, in the day you eat of this fruit, you will die.

So here's the key issue. If Adam and Eve had been created in a state of moral righteousness like the angels, then to reject this righteousness in favor of evil, they would then be in a state of moral unrighteousness which means they would be totally depraved, and would have no ability to be pleasing to God of themselves because they would now be in an eternal state of morally depravity.
Fallen angels are in this state, and there is no way to reverse it. If Adam and Eve were also in this state, there would be no way to reverse it for them either. This is where the reformers themselves haven't really got a clue what the basis is to reverse a person's state of moral depravity. There's no basis for it, but yet God does it in his infinite wisdom, which to us is nothing more than a divine lottery lacking in any kind of theological reasoning that makes any sense whatsoever
 

beloved57

Well-known member
People in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:7-8, and all men by nature are in the flesh. Now Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 hence, men in the flesh can't please God with Faith. Pretty clear!

By scripture saying that men in the flesh can't please God, it clearly denotes total depravity and inability.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Oh, goodness no. You merely state that we have enough free-will to allow for our choosing to come to God.

Let's see some verses and exegesis as needed. Make a real case.


If Christ himself came down from heaven and told you so, you still would not believe.

You have had enough light to light a city, yet you remain in darkness.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
If Christ himself came down from heaven and told you so, you still would not believe.

You have had enough light to light a city, yet you remain in darkness.

I dunno. Christ at least would quote Scripture.

You have your pet dogmas. That's OK. We all do. Your problem is that you have not thought them out enough to support them in a Biblical, logical manner. If questioned you curl up like an Armadillo and shout that the questioner is unsaved.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
How do you explain your hateful god?

Not sure I have to explain God. Not sure I could. Parts, yes, but everything? Would take some time.

OK, why don't you help your friend Pate out here. Make a Biblical and logical case for all having enough free-will to come to Christ on one's own.

I doubt you would be able to change many minds, but give it a go.

Hateful is just a label many put on God when they do not like the way he is.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
I dunno. Christ at least would quote Scripture.

You have your pet dogmas. That's OK. We all do. Your problem is that you have not thought them out enough to support them in a Biblical, logical manner. If questioned you curl up like an Armadillo and shout that the questioner is unsaved.

I have quoted you a whole Bible full of scripture, but you still don't get it. Only those that have the Holy Spirit understand the Gospel, you are not one of them.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I have quoted you a whole Bible full of scripture, but you still don't get it.

Did you quote this one?

Matthew 13:10-11 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."​
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Did you quote this one?

Matthew 13:10-11 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."​


The mysteries of the Kingdom were revealed to all on the day of Pentecost, Acts chapter 2.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I have quoted you a whole Bible full of scripture, but you still don't get it. Only those that have the Holy Spirit understand the Gospel, you are not one of them.

You don't believe the Gospel because you don't believe that Christ death alone saved them He died for. You teach that those Christ died for still wind up lost.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
You don't believe the Gospel because you don't believe that Christ death alone saved them He died for. You teach that those Christ died for still wind up lost.


The Bible clearly teaches that salvation has been provided for every one, Hebrews 2:9, plus many other scriptures. But you are determined to go to hell because you don't have faith in God or his Son Jesus Christ.
 

fishrovmen

Active member
Only those that have the Holy Spirit understand the Gospel.

So you believe in regeneration before faith? Or do you believe that the Holy Spirit is given and taken away then given again? Can you clarify Robert?
Does this not contradict the statement below, from your thread entitled "The Simplicity of the Gospel/Complicated Religions"?
The Gospel is so simple that even little children can hear it, believe it and be saved.
 
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