TOL's James Hilston Agrees: Yes, God Can Change!!

[Yorzhik]

Jim,

I'll start our one on one this afternoon. Thank you for accepting the invitation.

...

 

[ApologeticJedi]

From the Oxford Dictionary:

before preposition, conjunction, & adverb

1 during the period of time preceding (a particular event, date, or time) : [as prep. ]
she had to rest before dinner | the day before yesterday | before the war | [as conj. ] they lived rough for four days before they were arrested | it wasn't long before I had my first bite | [as adv. ] his playing days had ended six years before | it's never happened to me before.​

Please compare the above definition to the following:

from preposition

1 indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts :
she began to walk away from him | I leapt from my bed | figurative he was turning the committee away from appeasement. • indicating the distance between a particular place and another place used as a point of reference : the ambush occurred 50 yards from a checkpoint.
2 indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts : the show will run from 10 to 2.​

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

You take the time to argue about this?
The word "semantics" doesn't mean anything to you does it?

 

[koban]

You take the time to argue about this?
The word "semantics" doesn't mean anything to you does it?

Jimmy's playing a strange little game here.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Jimmy's playing a strange little game here.

His arguments are occasionally bad, but not this bad.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Jeremy Finkenbinder said: “What does that mean to you Jim? God caused a 5 year old to hang from a rope in his garage so that He could be glorified? Doesn't compute ...”

Hilston’s response: “God set up His only Son to be beaten, spit upon, whipped and tortured, His bones pulled out of joint, and executed at the hands of wicked men, all for the sake of His elect. Does that compute?”

God “set up” His only Son as you say. That God left His Son, with the concurrence of the Son, into the hands of ungodly as is Their free choice. We may never know the indignity that Jesus choose to go through placing his own deity to be personally mocked by the creatures He made, but He was a willing participant.

To suggest that this is somehow the same as children that are abused, mutilated, raped, and then murdered, is convenient ignorance of the differences. If God planned out the rape of children we could not call Him “good” by any stretch of the imagination. It doesn't matter what the ultimate outcome. If the manner of getting there is evil, it is all evil- even the planner as the accomplice to the doer. You should never do evil that good may come from it. God would be wrong if He did. If He planned it, He is an accomplice to the evil.

 

[Hilston]

What you call "semantics" I call foundational to major theological tenets. Do you care that the Bible makes a significant distinction between that which is decreed before the foundation of the world versus that which is decreed from the foundation of the world? Does that interest you at all? Do any of the details of God's Word matter to you? You people who so blithely assume that this is "merely semantics" either don't know me or have forgotten that it's never "merely semantics" with me. The Bible commands us to have a detailed knowledge (epignosis) of God's Word, and these are the very kinds of details that we are to pursue, rightly divide and apply with every fiber of our being.

semantics se·man·tics n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)

1 Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.
2 Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology.
3 The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

Strangely enough, God seems to care about semantics.

Before the foundation of the world:

• Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
• Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
• 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, ...

From the foundation of the world:

• Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
• Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
• Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
• Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
• Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
• Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God had a reason for using different prepositions. If it was important enough for God to use different words, it's important enough for us to understand why He did so.

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

 

[Poly]

There is little doubt in my mind that Open Theism truly affects one's ability to think or read, and posts like Poly's confirm this observation. I don't say this lightly or as a mere insult. It has been shown time and again. It is proven to me over and over. Am I above thinking sloppily or reading hastily? Of course not. I screw up all the time. But in important discussions such as this and others that happen on TOL, it is remarkable how often Open Theists seem unable to connect the big black dots.

Poly correctly quotes DoogieDuh:

Jeremy asked you for scripture that Christ's death was decreed before the foundation of the world, ... [Emphasis added]

Then she correctly quotes Jeremy Finkenbinder:

Please provide Scripture that Christ's death was decreed from the foundation of the world. [Emphasis added]

Poly then alleges:Then, as if to point out something obvious, she misses what is glaring, an important distinction that any careful Bible student should be keen to notice. Poly writes:

Allow me to offer a clue (the size of a '57 Buick):











From the Oxford Dictionary:

before preposition, conjunction, & adverb

1 during the period of time preceding (a particular event, date, or time) : [as prep. ]
she had to rest before dinner | the day before yesterday | before the war | [as conj. ] they lived rough for four days before they were arrested | it wasn't long before I had my first bite | [as adv. ] his playing days had ended six years before | it's never happened to me before.




​

Please compare the above definition to the following:

from preposition






1 indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts :
she began to walk away from him | I leapt from my bed | figurative he was turning the committee away from appeasement. • indicating the distance between a particular place and another place used as a point of reference : the ambush occurred 50 yards from a checkpoint.
2 indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts : the show will run from 10 to 2.




​

Jim





Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

This is your '57 Buick size clue? Seriously?


You like to talk a big talk, trying to suggest that you've revealed something supposedly profound. This is nothing more than meaningless and inane nitpicking yet you claim it's "connecting the big black dots".

Oh but here's the real kicker.... Before, from, previous to, in the beginning, or prior to, call it what you want but what does it matter? You still failed to answer Jeremy's question no matter what word you put in there. His question deserved a serious response but instead you respond with.....

Gen 3:15 Ge 4:3-5; 22:2,3,6-8,13; 35:14; Ex 18:12; 25:2,3; 29:14,18,24-28,36,40-42; 30:9,10,13-15,20,28; 31:9; 35:5,16,21,22,24,29; 36:3,6; 38:1,24,29; 40:6,10,29; Le 1:2-4,6,9,10,13,14,17-2:11,13-3:3,5-9,11,12,14,16; 4:3,7,8,10,18,20,21,23-25,28-30,32-34; 5:6-13,15,16,18,19; 6:5,6,9,10,12,14,15,17,20,21,23,25,30-7:2,5,7-10,13,14,16,25,30,32,37; 8:2,14,18,21,27-29; 9:2-4,7,8,10,12-17,21,22,24; 10:12,15-17,19; 12:6,8; 14:10,12-14,17,19-22,24,25,28,31; 15:15,30; 16:3,5,6,9,11,15,24,25,27; 17:4,8; 19:21,22; 22:12,18,21-24,27; 23:8,12-16,18-20,25,27,36,37; 24:7; 27:9; Nu 4:16; 5:9,15,18,25,26; 6:11,12,14-17,20,21; 7:3,10-13,15-17,19,21-23,25,27-29,31,33-35,37,39-41,43,45-47,49,51-53,55,57-59,61,63-65,67,69-71,73,75-77,79,81-83,87; 8:8,11-13,15,21; 9:7,13; 15:3-10,13,14,19-21,24,25,27; 16:15; 18:9,11,17,24,26-29; 23:3,15,17; 28:2,3,5-15,19,20,22-24,26-28,31; 29:2,3,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,18,19,21,22,24,25,27,28 ,30,31,33,34,36-38; 31:29,41,52; De 12:11,17; 16:10; 23:23; Jos 22:23,26; Jud 6:18; 11:31; 13:16,19,23; 1Sa 2:17,29; 3:14; 6:3,4,8,14,17; 7:9,10; 13:9,10,12; 26:19; 2Sa 6:18; 1Ki 18:29,36; 2Ki 3:20,27; 5:17; 10:25; 16:13,15; 1Ch 6:49; 16:2,29,40; 21:23,26,29; 22:1; 23:29; 2Ch 4:6; 7:1; 8:13; 29:18,21,23,24,27-29,32,35; 30:22; 35:14; Ezr 1:4; 3:5; 6:17; 7:16; 8:25,28,35; Ne 10:33,34,39; 13:9,31; Job 42:8; Ps 40:6; 51:16,19; 96:8; Isa 40:16; 43:23; 53:10; 57:6; 61:8; 65:11; 66:20; Jer 11:17; 14:12; Eze 20:28; 40:38,39,42,43; 42:13; 43:19,21,22,24,25; 44:11,27,29; 45:15,17,19,22-25; 46:2,4,5,7,11-15,20; 48:8; Joe 1:9,13; 2:14; Zep 3:10; Mal 1:10,11,13; 2:12,13; 3:3,4; Lu 23:36; Ac 21:26; Ro 15:16; Eph 5:2; Heb 10:5,8,10,11,14,18

This is childish at best and something that "any careful bible student" should be above doing.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

What you call "semantics" I call foundational to major theological tenets. Do you care that the Bible makes a significant distinction between that which is decreed before the foundation of the world versus that which is decreed from the foundation of the world? Does that interest you at all?

It is the same Greek word "apo", same Greek phrase "apo kataboles kosmon".
I'm not calling it "semantics" - it is semantics.

God had a reason for using different prepositions. If it was important enough for God to use different words, it's important enough for us to understand why He did so.

Eph 1:4 uses the same preposition (exact same) as Rev 13:8. They are even of the same tense. They point to different things, otherwise they could mean either way.

Can you at least admit that you got carried away on this one point, or do you care to explain what "different preposition" God is using between Eph 1:4 and Rev 13:8? (I would like the Greek that is different in your response.)

(I have checked my Expositor's Greek Testament and Greek Interlinear and would much like to know where you are getting that they are different..)

 

[koban]

This is your '57 Buick size clue? Seriously?


You like to talk a big talk, trying to suggest that you've revealed something supposedly profound. This is nothing more than meaningless and inane nitpicking yet you claim it's "connecting the big black dots".

Oh but here's the real kicker.... Before, from, previous to, in the beginning, or prior to, call it what you want but what does it matter? You still failed to answer Jeremy's question no matter what word you put in there. His question deserved a serious response but instead you respond with.....



This is childish at best and something that "any careful bible student" should be above doing.

Like I said Poly - he's just playing at a game here.

Kinda like his "debate" with Bob on the radio.

He's not very good at this, either.

 

[fool]

Is there a future?
Isn't there some sub atomic particle that knows the future?

 

[Hilston]

God “set up” His only Son as you say. That God left His Son, with the concurrence of the Son, into the hands of ungodly as is Their free choice. We may never know the indignity that Jesus choose to go through placing his own deity to be personally mocked by the creatures He made, but He was a willing participant.

Not according to Open Theism. Open Theists believe that Jesus' will was contrary to the Father's when He prayed in the garden. He was a reluctant participant, not fully willing, according to Open Theists.

To suggest that this is somehow the same as children that are abused, mutilated, raped, and then murdered, is convenient ignorance of the differences. If God planned out the rape of children we could not call Him “good” by any stretch of the imagination.

That's because you unbiblically and humanistically attempt to sit in judgment of God. You've taken upon yourself the role of judge and have presumed to decide, based on humanistic principles and existential tenets whether or not God is good. As soon as God does or plans something unacceptable to you, you will decide that God is evil and not good. Jeremy will then hate God instead of love Him.

It doesn't matter what the ultimate outcome. If the manner of getting there is evil, it is all evil- even the planner as the accomplice to the doer. You should never do evil that good may come from it.

God decreed evil that good would result. E.g. God taunted Satan to attack Job. What do you make of that? Will you judge God as evil because He urged Satan to do evil?

God would be wrong if He did. If He planned it, He is an accomplice to the evil.

Was God wrong to plan the evil that happened to His Son? Does that make God an accomplice to the evil that was inflicted upon Him? Was God wrong to plan the evil that was inflicted upon Joseph by his brothers and to use for good?

Are you for real? This is your '57 Buick size clue? You actually sumbitted this expecting people to take you seriously and you're not embarrassed?

What are you not getting, Poly? What are you finding difficult to understand?

Why are you people so obsesssed about a point made and dropped by Jeremy Finkenbinder? What is it with you people? You accuse me of digging myself into a hole, but it is you people who will not move on. It's clear to me that you're not really interested in the argument. If you were, you'd be asking questions about the significance of the differences between the prepositions.

You like to talk a big talk, pretending that you've revealed something supposedly profound.

No, it's exactly the opposite. It's nothing so esoteric. I expected Jeremy to see the difference. I expected anyone reading this to see the difference (the exceptions being DoogieDuff and Koban; I don't expect either of them to understand much of anything). When DoogieDuff didn't see it, I wasn't surprised. When Koban used it to accuse me of playing a "silly game," I wasn't surprised. When you directly quoted Jeremy and put it right alongside DoogieDuff's and my quotes, I was baffled that you still were not seeing it. This is nothing profound. This is nothing arcane. It's as plain as day.

This is nothing more than meaningless and inane nitpicking yet you claim it's "connecting the big black dots".

Wow. I expect this from DoogieDuff and Koban. Their club must be bigger than I initially thought. If you want to see the significance of my "meaningless and inane nitpicking," please see the link below.

Oh but here's the real kicker.... Before, from, previous to, in the beginning, or prior to, call it what you want but what does it matter? You still failed to answer Jeremy's question no matter what word you put in there. His question deserved a serious response but instead you respond with ... This is childish at best and something that "any careful bible student" should be above doing.

He wanted references. I gave them. A mountain of them. If he wanted elaboration, he could've asked. It appears that it wasn't needed. If you'll notice, Jeremy didn't have a problem with my list of verses. He apparently saw my point perfectly and was happy to move on. Only the DoogieDuff-Koban-Poly-Apologetic-Jedi Club seems to have a problem with it.

Whether you think it's mere semantics or meaningless, inane nitpicking, the fact remains that it is of major theological significance to understand the distinctions between that which was decreed before the foundation of the world and that which was decreed from the foundation of the world. If you're interested in the details of these distinctions, see the following study:

The Place of Paul's Gospel In God's Electing Decrees

If you're not interested, then please drop it before you all, due to your ignorance, make yourselves look like idiots. While it's apparently too late for Koban, I suspect there might be a glimmer of hope for the rest of you.

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

 

[koban]

Not according to Open Theism. Open Theists believe that Jesus' will was contrary to the Father's when He prayed in the garden. He was a reluctant participant, not fully willing, according to Open Theists.

That's because you unbiblically and humanistically attempt to sit in judgment of God. You've taken upon yourself the role of judge and have presumed to decide, based on humanistic principles and existential tenets whether or not God is good. As soon as God does or plans something unacceptable to you, you will decide that God is evil and not good. Jeremy will then hate God instead of love Him.

God decreed evil that good would result. E.g. God taunted Satan to attack Job. What do you make of that? Will you judge God as evil because He urged Satan to do evil?

Was God wrong to plan the evil that happened to His Son? Does that make God an accomplice to the evil that was inflicted upon Him? Was God wrong to plan the evil that was inflicted upon Joseph by his brothers and to use for good?

What are you not getting, Poly? What are you finding difficult to understand?

Why are you people so obsesssed about a point made and dropped by Jeremy Finkenbinder? What is it with you people? You accuse me of digging myself into a hole, but it is you people who will not move on. It's clear to me that you're not really interested in the argument. If you were, you'd be asking questions about the significance of the differences between the prepositions.

No, it's exactly the opposite. It's nothing so esoteric. I expected Jeremy to see the difference. I expected anyone reading this to see the difference (the exceptions being DoogieDuff and Koban; I don't expect either of them to understand much of anything). When DoogieDuff didn't see it, I wasn't surprised. When Koban used it to accuse me of playing a "silly game," I wasn't surprised. When you directly quoted Jeremy and put it right alongside DoogieDuff's and my quotes, I was baffled that you still were not seeing it. This is nothing profound. This is nothing arcane. It's as plain as day.

Wow. I expect this from DoogieDuff and Koban. Their club must be bigger than I initially thought. If you want to see the significance of my "meaningless and inane nitpicking," please see the link below.

He wanted references. I gave them. A mountain of them. If he wanted elaboration, he could've asked. It appears that it wasn't needed. If you'll notice, Jeremy didn't have a problem with my list of verses. He apparently saw my point perfectly and was happy to move on. Only the DoogieDuff-Koban-Poly-Apologetic-Jedi Club seems to have a problem with it.

Whether you think it's mere semantics or meaningless, inane nitpicking, the fact remains that it is of major theological significance to understand the distinctions between that which was decreed before the foundation of the world and that which was decreed from the foundation of the world. If you're interested in the details of these distinctions, see the following study:

The Place of Paul's Gospel In God's Electing Decrees

If you're not interested, then please drop it before you all, due to your ignorance, make yourselves look like idiots. While it's apparently too late for Koban, I suspect there might be a glimmer of hope for the rest of you.

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

But Jimmy, don't nobody like you 'round here. :think:

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Not according to Open Theism. Open Theists believe that Jesus' will was contrary to the Father's when He prayed in the garden. He was a reluctant participant, not fully willing, according to Open Theists.

That's a lie. I'd say it is a strawman, except that you know better.

Open theists admit, as do most armenians, that Jesus would have loved not to have to go to the cross to save mankind, but when there was no other way, Jesus went willingly.

You've taken upon yourself the role of judge and have presumed to decide, based on humanistic principles and existential tenets whether or not God is good.

I'm basing it on the Scriptural definition of goodness. God's own points. For it is God that says that you should not do evil that good may come of it.

God decreed evil that good would result. E.g. God taunted Satan to attack Job. What do you make of that? Will you judge God as evil because He urged Satan to do evil?

God taunted Satan that Job obeyed him. It was not God that suggested to Satan to attack, as I rememebr the story.

Basically Satan bet God that Job would curse him if God took away His protection. God predicted he wouldn't but Satan didn't believe him. Didn't Satan know God knows the future? If God knows the future exhaustively, wouldn't Satan of all people know that? Is Satan the dumbest gambler that ever lived? That's worse than betting against the Harlem Globetrotters!

BTW --- are you going to answer my question as to how "before" (Eph 1:4) and "from" (Rev. 13:8) are different in the original Greek, or can we let that drop?

 

[fool]

Now I understand why Bob hates time dialation :idea:
He's worried there might be some kind of future.
And if there is one then it seems God should know about it.
And since Bob says God dosen't know about it.
Then there can't be one.
I don't know if there's a future or not.
But what we do in life, echos in eternity.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Is Satan the dumbest gambler that ever lived? That's worse than betting against the Harlem Globetrotters!

:rotfl:

 

[Poly]

Why are you people so obsesssed about a point made and dropped by Jeremy Finkenbinder? What is it with you people? You accuse me of digging myself into a hole, but it is you people who will not move on.

Translation: "Why are you people so obsessed with this? Since Jeremy didn't bring this back up I thought I was in the clear. You guys expose me for digging myself into a hole but I'm trying not to draw attention to this and I wish you would just move on.

No, it's exactly the opposite. It's nothing so esoteric. I expected Jeremy to see the difference. I expected anyone reading this to see the difference......
This is nothing profound.

then later...

Whether you think it's mere semantics or meaningless, inane nitpicking, the fact remains that it is of major theological significance to understand the distinctions between that which was decreed before the foundation of the world and that which was decreed from the foundation of the world.

Major theological significance? No. You were correct the first time. This is nothing profound.

If you're not interested, then please drop it before you all, due to your ignorance, make yourselves look like idiots. While it's apparently too late for Koban, I suspect there might be a glimmer of hope for the rest of you.

Hey, I've got a question for you. Why is it that when you were on Bob's show you conducted yourself in a very cordial manner and then you come here and you're back to acting like a jerk?

Would the real Jim Hilston please stand up?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Not according to Open Theism. Open Theists believe that Jesus' will was contrary to the Father's when He prayed in the garden. He was a reluctant participant, not fully willing, according to Open Theists.

That's because you unbiblically and humanistically attempt to sit in judgment of God. You've taken upon yourself the role of judge and have presumed to decide, based on humanistic principles and existential tenets whether or not God is good. As soon as God does or plans something unacceptable to you, you will decide that God is evil and not good. Jeremy will then hate God instead of love Him.

God decreed evil that good would result. E.g. God taunted Satan to attack Job. What do you make of that? Will you judge God as evil because He urged Satan to do evil?

Was God wrong to plan the evil that happened to His Son? Does that make God an accomplice to the evil that was inflicted upon Him? Was God wrong to plan the evil that was inflicted upon Joseph by his brothers and to use for good?

What are you not getting, Poly? What are you finding difficult to understand?

Why are you people so obsesssed about a point made and dropped by Jeremy Finkenbinder? What is it with you people? You accuse me of digging myself into a hole, but it is you people who will not move on.

Translation: Since Jeremy didn't bring it back up I thought I was in the clear but you guys still expect me to answer for my weak response. I'm trying to run from this so please stop.

:first:

 

[sentientsynth]

AJ,

You may be mistransliterating.

pro ~ pi, rho, omicron ~ before
apo ~ alpha, pi, omicron ~ from

Pretty similar.

Eph 1:4

2531 kaq¢wV (as) 1586 exel ¢ exato (he chose) 1473 hm¢aV (us) 1722 en (in) 1473 aut¢w (him) 4253 pro (before) 2602 katabol¢hV (the founding) 2889 k¢osmou (of the world,) 1510.1—1473 e ¢ inai hm¢aV (for us to be) 39 ag¢ iouV (holy) 2532 kai (and) 299 a¢wmouV (unblemished) 2714 katen ¢wpion (before) 1473 auto¢u (him) 1722 en (in) 26 ag¢aph (love.)

Rev 13:8

... 1909 ep¢ i upon 3588 thV the 1093 ghV earth, 3739 wn whose 3756—1125 ou g¢egraptai [2has not been written 3588 to 3686 ¢onoma 1name]1722 en (in) 3588 tw (the) 976 bibliw (book) 3588 thV (of the) 2222 zw¢hV (life) 3588 tou (of the) 721arn¢ iou (lamb,)
3588 tou (of the one )4969 esfagm¢ enou (having being slain) 575 ap¢ o(from) 2602 katabol¢hV (the founding ) 2889 k¢osmou (of the world.)

Is Satan the dumbest gambler that ever lived?

Rest assured that anyone who says in their heart that they will exalt their own name above that of God's is deluded to the core.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Hey, I've got a question for you. Why is it that when you were on Bob's show you conducted yourself in a very cordial manner and then you come here and you're back to acting like a jerk?

Would the real Jim Hilston please stand up?

I have pondered that myself. :think:

The only thing I can think of is something must get lost in the translation. (pun intended)

 

[sentientsynth]

Major theological significance? No. You were correct the first time. This is nothing profound.

I was shocked to later discover that this significant distinction is absent from The Plot.