Combined reply to:
- ApologeticJedi
- Drbrumley
- Poly
- ApologeticJedi (again)
ApologeticJedi said:
If you are going to give a quote and say we must, as you put it, “take someone’s words for what they are”, then when someone shows you places where Augustine backed the idea of absolute immutablility, leaving no room for exception, shouldn’t you and Hilston have the courage to take those words for what they are as well?
I do take those words for what they are, AJ. Every time Augustine and Calvin talk about immutability and God as unchanging, they do so specifically, not generally. They do so with clear qualifiers. Read my posts on the subject. Check their contexts for yourself and see if I'm not being accurate.
ApologeticJedi said:
I think that’s a clear bias of thinking to say that only your quotes should be taken from their plain meaning, but other quotes … well, we can’t read his mind on those.
You missed the point, AJ. When I said we can't read Augustine's mind, the point was that we can only go on Augustine's WRITTEN WORDS. Bob was asking me explain what Augustine means beyond what Augustine actually wrote. In order to respond, I had to guess, I had to put myself in Augustine's shoes. He was asking me to offer an opinion that went beyond Auggie's writings.
Here's a transcript:
Bob: "Why don't you explain to the audience what Augustine means by that [excerpt Enyart read].
Jim: "Again, I can't say that I
know what he means; I can
guess based on what I've read. And if he [Augustine] says elsewhere that God is immutable in His substance and nature, then I take
that passage to mean ~ and I know that he had a Platonic influence ~ that, if that which is perfect in its essence and nature, changes, then it ceases to be perfect.
Bob: And that's, of course, not biblical. You agree that that's not biblical, right?
Jim: Well, regardless of what
I think, it seems that that's was what
Augustine was saying; that God in His
nature and essence is unchangeable. And if He were to change in His
essence and nature, He would cease to be perfect.
ApologeticJedi said:
I mean you can say that, but don’t pretend it isn’t some sort of hypocritical dodge. You aren't fooling anyone.
You must be desperate, AJ. Where is the hypocrisy? Where is the dodge? I'm not above hypocrisy or dodging. I've been guilty both, but where is it
here?
Drbrumley said:
God is immutable in His character.
Does God have a choice about being immutable? Could God be evil if He wanted to be?
Drbrumley said:
What is your point Hilston?
Augustine agrees with you. So does Calvin. The Calvinistic view of immutability regards God character, His essential character, i.e. a qualified immutability. Open Theists allege that Calvinists believe God cannot change at all in any way whatsoever. Yet Augustine claims that God changes in His ways and actions.
Hilston wrote:
Do you believe God could become evil if He wanted to?
Poly said:
Why are you getting off topic?
It's not off-topic. Immutability has everything to do with what are God's essential attributes. Is it that God WILL NOT deny Himself, or is it that God CANNOT deny Himself?
Poly said:
My post was an agreement in response to comments made about change being equated to imperfection or sin.
Yes, and whenever someone does that without specifying
what is said to change, there is the potential for misunderstanding and error. You fell into this in your statements, and I sought to specify and qualify for the sake of the discussion.
Poly said:
I merely gave examles of how not changing can sometimes be equated with imperfection showing how easy it is to refute Aristotles bizzare idea on what change means.
You don't understand Aristotle. The essential attributes of that which is Perfect cannot change and remain perfect. Perfect is an absolute that only applies to God. For Him to be anything other than what He ESSENTIALLY is, or to change in some way in those ESSENTIAL ATTRIBUTES would be a change away from perfection, to become imperfect. And God cannot do that. God does not WILL Himself to be perfect; He ESSENTIALLY IS perfect. Do you see the distinction?
Poly said:
And I have no idea why you would think asking such a question was relevant to anything. If God cannot become evil, this still doesn't prove that God can't change in any way whatsoever.
Who said God can't change in anyway whatsoever? I didn't. Augustine didn't. Neither did Calvin.
Poly said:
And it certainly doesn't prove that change is evil.
For the Perfect God to change in His ESSENTIAL ATTRIBUTES would be evil. For example, if God violated His truthfulness and lied, that would be evil; that would mean a change in His essential attribute of truthfulness. If God violated His justice and did something unjust, that would be evil; that would mean a change in His essential attribute of being just. God's essential attributes are what define God as God. If any of those attributes were to change, they would change for the worse, and God would cease to be God, which is utterly impossible. According to Open Theist/humanistic tenets, however, this is entirely possible.
Poly said:
God changing does not compromise His essential attributes such as righteousness, goodness, justice and mercy, all of which can be carried out perfectly and the ability to change does take away from them.
I agree with you. So do Calvin and Augustine.
Hilston wrote:
This again is the humanist trying to judge God according to man's experience.
Poly said:
No, this is a former Calvinist, who was fully convinced that what she believed about God came straight from the word and was fortunate to wake up and realize that it wasn't biblical at all but came straight from man.
What came straight from man?
Poly said:
I choose to take God at His word. I choose to beleive Him, when He says He brought the animals to Adam "to see" what He would name them.
Did God know where Adam was when Adam was hiding and God asked "Adam, where are you?"
Poly said:
... when He says "Now I know" concerning Abraham's willingness to be obedient.
Did God know the woman at the well was shacking up with someone who was not her husband when He asked her to "Go get your husband"?
Poly said:
... I no longer take it upon myself to suggest that God really knew ahead of time, what Adam would name the animals and how Abraham would react.
Did God know where Adam was ahead of time? Did Jesus know ahead of time that the woman at the well already had several husbands, and that her current beau was not her husband?
Poly said:
I limited God and minimized His power when I based my faith on Him being able to carry out righteousness only if He cannot change.
How so? Are you saying God has the power to be evil? Does God have the power to lie? Heb 6:17,18 and 2Ti 2:13 say otherwise.
Poly said:
... I choose not to limit Him anymore. I choose to see Him just as He's described in the word as The Living God.
But you HAVE limited Him. You've made God finite. Ask Jeremy Finkenbinder. He believes God is finite. It's the logical conclusion of your view.
Poly said:
... I'm so confident in His righteousness, goodness, and power that I have no doubt that He can accomplish His will, having the ability to change while interacting with us, daily, moment by moment.
Note the equivocation. Over and over, Open Theists have agreed with me that God does not change in His righteous character and attributes; over and over again, Open Theists have agreed with me that God can change in relationships and actions, yet the Open Theists continue to irrationally accuse Settled Viewers of somehow believing that God cannot change in His relationships and actions.
ApologeticJedi said:
You are trying to pretend that you have some high ground because you believe God "can't" become evil. Yet, this too has no assurance.
Why not?
ApologeticJedi said:
Your belief that God can't become evil is not tied to what you absolutely know.
Finite beings cannot have absolute knowledge, AJ.
ApologeticJedi said:
... What I mean is that you don't know it because you've seen God or because you know what it is like to become a deity.
Of course not. We have to go on the testimony of God's infallible and inerrant Word that says God cannot lie, cannot oppose His own immutable decrees, and cannot deny Himself.
ApologeticJedi said:
Your claim to know that God can't be evil is because ….. you believe He said in His word.
Correct.
ApologeticJedi said:
So if God was evil, and all you have is His word, then how do you know He didn't lie?
It's not my problem. I don't believe God can do evil. You, however, do.
ApologeticJedi said:
... After all, the worst kind of evil is the evil that feigns righteousness. How do you know God hasn't already succumbed to evil and is playing all believers for chumps?
I know because it's not possible for God to be able to lie, contradict His own desires and decrees, or deny Himself. You cannot know, because you believe in a God who could do all those things.
ApologeticJedi said:
That is where faith comes into play on both camps. To pretend your side has some higher footing is to be kidding yourself (and not thinking through your posts very well, imo).
Incorrect. My view is rational; yours is not only irrational, but leads to uncertainty, ambiguity, confusion, equivocation, and obscurantism.
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!
… I mean you can say that, but don’t pretend it isn’t some sort of hypocritical dodge. You aren't fooling anyone.
