toldailytopic: Women preaching from the pulpit. Is it wrong?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'm just trying to understand the difference between a woman talking to a man outside of church and talking to a man inside a church. It seems to be a somewhat arbitrary difference. That's why I tried to separate out the act of teaching/preaching from the other pastoral duties in my one post to AMR. Unless you don't think the woman should even try to teach a man outside the church either. But again, the act of teaching and preaching should be clearly defined.

"If" we wish to be obedient to the word of God than we ought to pay attention to Paul and what He has to say about how God desires the church to obey certain guidelines. One of those guidelines is that, women remain silent within the church and not be in a position to preach and teach where men are concerned. Men are to be the Pastor in the church that's the will of God. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 14:34 and see what it says. If you still don't understand or disagree then I feel bad for you...Because it's a simple truth...

 

[kmoney]

"If" we wish to be obedient to the word of God than we ought to pay attention to Paul and what He has to say about how God desires the church to obey certain guidelines. One of those guidelines is that, women remain silent within the church and not be in a position to preach and teach where men are concerned. Men are to be the Pastor in the church that's the will of God. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and see what it says. If you still don't understand or disagree then I feel bad for you...Because it's a simple truth...

I am just trying to explore the issue in greater detail.

You keep pointing to 1 Cor 11 but that isn't even about women being silent in churches or preaching and teaching. Paul is talking about the manner in which women should pray and prophesy.

Even 1 Cor 14 isn't really about teaching and preaching. For that, 1 Tim is what you want.

 

[sky.]

"If" we wish to be obedient to the word of God than we ought to pay attention to Paul and what He has to say about how God desires the church to obey certain guidelines. One of those guidelines is that, women remain silent within the church and not be in a position to preach and teach where men are concerned. Men are to be the Pastor in the church that's the will of God. If you can't understand that, I can't help you. Read 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and see what it says. If you still don't understand or disagree then I feel bad for you...Because it's a simple truth...

It isn't just Paul. Timothy and Titus speak of leadership in the church. People just don't want to see that an elder is to lead the church and an elder is always male in the Biblical model of leadership in a church.

They get confused when they see the title "deacon" a deacon is a servant role and women can be a deaconess but it is still a servant model under a male church elder. Deacon and deaconess are both servants under male elders.

 

[sky.]

Acts 6:1-6
Acts 6
1 Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2 And the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not fit that we should forsake the word of God, and serve tables.

3 Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4 But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;

6 whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands upon them.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I am just trying to explore the issue in greater detail.

You keep pointing to 1 Cor 11 but that isn't even about women being silent in churches or preaching and teaching. Paul is talking about the manner in which women should pray and prophesy.

Even 1 Cor 14 isn't really about teaching and preaching. For that, 1 Tim is what you want.

1 Corinthians 14:34 states, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted to them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also said the law."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It isn't just Paul. Timothy and Titus speak of leadership in the church. People just don't want to see that an elder is to lead the church and an elder is always male in the Biblical model of leadership in a church.

They get confused when they see the title "deacon" a deacon is a servant role and women can be a deaconess but it is still a servant model under a male church elder. Deacon and deaconess are both servants under male elders.

Very good Sky...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I am just trying to explore the issue in greater detail.

You keep pointing to 1 Cor 11 but that isn't even about women being silent in churches or preaching and teaching. Paul is talking about the manner in which women should pray and prophesy.

Even 1 Cor 14 isn't really about teaching and preaching. For that, 1 Tim is what you want.

You are correct. I gave the wrong chapter. Chapter 14 is where it mentions the women being silent. My mistake...

 

[Totton Linnet]

Go and ask your Pastor...bah, the most of them I have met are lazy good for nothings. Not lazy in driving nails or painting the sanctuary, but in spiritual matters, one said to me "when things are at such a low ebb as they are now [less than 2 percent of the population in Britain today claim to be born again] it is our job to keep the church ticking over"

"Ticking over" the world around us is going to hell on greased wheels, the discos and the booze parlours are jampacked, the masseurs are doing a roaring trade and you walk past the local churches night after night and they are black holes, lights out, nobody there.

AMR is wrong and he is wrong

He is wrong in scripture, on the day of pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell He fell on the women as well as the men, Acts names the apostles who were there and "the women were together with them" do you think the Holy Ghost fell on them to teach them to wash the dishes? they were ALL filled with the Holy Spirit, the men and the women went out preaching.

Peter said so.

"This what you SEE AND HEAR is what Joel said, "it shall be in the last days God says [WHO CARES WHAT MEN SAY when God has said a thing?] I will pour out My Spirit on ALL flesh...and My menservants and My maidservants will preach"

God said the women are gunna preach and we are gunna.

Paul telling the brothers at Phillipi said "make sure you give Eudica and Synteche all the help they need...these women are FELLOW labourers with me in the gospel"

And AMR is wrong in church history as well as scripture, for the women have gone, the China Inland Mission told Gladys Ayleward "you can't go" but she went anyway and God was with her. She was famous for conducting over a hundred children to safety over the mountains but before this she was traveling the remote mountain villages establishing christian assemblies where the gospel had never been heard. And these assemblies stood the test of the brutal Japanese invasion and the wicked oppression of the Commies...martyrs.

Nor was she the only lone woman missionary, there were Scandinavian woman working the remote China inland and Mongolia and Tibet. What of Amy Carmichael in India.

What would you say to Corrie and Betsy ten Boom? who established a christian assembly in Ravensbruch? many of those women who were slaughtered went to their deaths with the name of Jesus on their lips.

And AMR is wrong for who authorised dear Nang or dear Rainee to come and preach on TOL? are they ordained? what do you think we are all doing here? we never heard Peter preach or Paul...but we have their written words, we have Nangs written word...it is all witnessing what we ahve, what we know, we all want to be a blessing.

My dear brother AMR is wrong and he does need to be told, for there is never a scrap of scripture to say "Go ye not" it is all the other way.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

My dear brother AMR is wrong and he does need to be told, for there is never a scrap of scripture to say "Go ye not" it is all the other way.[/QUOTE] Totton Linnet


Thanks for playing...GM...

 

[ThePresbyteers]

... (clipped)...on the day of pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell He fell on the women as well as the men, Acts names the apostles who were there and "the women were together with them" do you think the Holy Ghost fell on them to teach them to wash the dishes? they were ALL filled with the Holy Spirit, the men and the women went out preaching.. . ..

That's an interesting observation.

Let the Spirit fall on the speechless female dogs to wash the dishes.
Not only you save the dishes but you save on electricity and water.
Females make great house pets.

A moderator of a large liberal denomination responded to a person asking
about female ordination. He responded, "You're old fashioned !"

What a simpler response !

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Once more, Scripture clearly defines the matter of who can hold church offices: godly men: 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Corinthians 14:34, and 1 Timothy 2:12.

There is no support in Scripture for female church officers. Yes, in 1 Timothy 3:11, in the middle of teaching on church officers, Paul writes about certain women (gunaikas). And, yes, in Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe is called a deaconess or helper.

Neither of these passages give any warrant for ordaining women as church office holders.

In 1 Timothy 3, if Paul was referring to women deacons, it would be reasonable to assume he would have concluded his list of the qualifications for men deacons prior to discussing this so-assumed new office of female deacons in 1 Timothy 3:11. Yet, from Scripture we clearly see Paul further speaking in the next two verses of the qualifications of the men. In 1 Timothy 3:11, the women mentioned are the wives of the church officers, the wives of deacons and bishops (elders), aiding their husbands in their office, said women must having behaviors that are exemplary if they are to be aids to their husbands that are deacons and bishops (elders).

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe is described as diakonon, that is servant. There is no doubt and no argument that there were deaconesses in the early church. These women held no church office, were not ordained, rather these women served as an order of helpers, per 1 Timothy 5:3-16, performing functions such as ministering to the needy, the poor, or visiting the sick.

Both men and women are of equal value, made in the image of God. Neither is ontologically greater than the other. That said, the matter here is the natural structure of authority God has decreed in accordance with His good, perfect, and pleasing (to the redeemed) will. Scripture teaches that in marriage, the wife is to be subject to her husband, exhorted to seek out activities related to home and family, and to remain silent in the assembly of the church. We also find didactic teachings in Scripture, including qualification lists for those who are in authority, excluding women. Given all that we in front of us from Scripture, how can anyone argue that a woman, who is to be subject to her husband’s authority, can be lawfully ordained to any church office and thereby have authority over him? As I have stated earlier, such things are acts of rebellion against God.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Why do you think God won't allow women to fulfill these roles?

I see in one of your earlier posts you say it has to do with the creation and the fall. Do you think God just chose these defined roles for men and women from the start? Was there a reason for it?

God laid out the roles for men and women according to His own good counsel. We have no explicit teachings from Scripture as to "reason why" only that God God chose to create the world in a specific way, in a specific order, for specific reasons.

From Genesis we learn that man was created by God first, and given authority over all other creatures, including woman, created from Adam's flesh as a helper to him, and to whom she was brought, and named. Note from the Genesis account, that contrary to the popular view that women were made subject to men because of and after the Fall, the authority of man over women was part of God's natural order of the roles within His created order.

Clearly, before the Fall, Adam was head and authority over all creation and the woman. Recall also that God called this authority structure "good" before the Fall. After the Fall, the relationship between man and woman has become very strained, yet, woman remains even more subject to man.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Or, let me ask a slightly different question. Would it be true to say that you don't think it's wrong for a women to teach or preach a sermon in church, but it is wrong for them to do the other things associated with being a pastor, like administering the sacraments?

For example, would it be wrong for a woman to be a guest speaker or something like that and preach a sermon or a series of sermons in a church?

Wrong for a woman on all accounts. Exhortation and administration of the sacraments is for the lawfully ordained, whose call has been verified, and who have been sent.

AMR

 

[bybee]

Wrong for a woman on all accounts. Exhortation and administration of the sacraments is for the lawfully ordained, whose call has been verified, and who have been sent.

AMR

Do you consider this to be a salvific issue or is it an issue of protocol handed down through history, a history dominated by the idea that man is in charge of all he surveys?
It might be said that the dominance of either partner in marriage, for instance, negates the idea of becoming one flesh? One flesh cannot be separated into dominance/submission.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Do you consider this to be a salvific issue or is it an issue of protocol handed down through history, a history dominated by the idea that man is in charge of all he surveys?
It might be said that the dominance of either partner in marriage, for instance, negates the idea of becoming one flesh? One flesh cannot be separated into dominance/submission.

There you go again...

 

[chrysostom]

Do you consider this to be a salvific issue or is it an issue of protocol handed down through history, a history dominated by the idea that man is in charge of all he surveys?.

there is a loaded question

 

[bybee]

There you go again...

I wasn't addressing you. You are insignificant.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I wasn't addressing you. You are insignificant.

After all the fine things I've said about you? This is how you repay me??

 

[chrysostom]

After all the fine things I've said about you? This is how you repay me??

you are at least worth replying to

 

[Totton Linnet]

Who wants to be church officer? but if anyone does let him do what an officer of the church is there to do.

Encourage, not DIScourage, build UP not tear down, equip the saints not disable and disqualify them for the work of the ministry. It is being said women may not preach, but God said they WILL preach. That is all I aspire to, pray and preach. Those two ministries can turn the whole world upside down for the glory of God.

Why do you accept only some ministries as relevant? and dismiss others as only relevant for bible days.

We NEED apostles today to teach us again like Paul taught us "there is neither Jew or Gentile, bond or free [and you know it] male or female" in the body of Christ.

To answer an earlier post by someone I AM old fashioned more old fashioned than the Reformers, they only went back to the church [I was about to say backslidden] fathers so called, I want to go back to the apostles.

Pastors in todays churches are not the same as Pastors in the bible, they act the same as Priests....all their talk is about sacraments and ordinations.