There are actually reports of the dead being raised. Atheists use your lame argument here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html
Why won't God heal amputees?
Read it and weep. Checkmate. (thank you Lord for wisdom to counter unbelief)
toldailytopic: What is a miracle? Is God still performing them to this day?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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There are actually reports of the dead being raised. Atheists use your lame argument here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html
Why won't God heal amputees?
Read it and weep. Checkmate. (thank you Lord for wisdom to counter unbelief)
Actually critical thinking and logical reasoning are my strong suits. Even more than reading or spelling.
No Sheep Here
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What people have been raised from the dead? When? Cite me one confirmed source of this. I know about Lazarus disease (people vital signs become unreadable and they are thought to have been dead). Cite me one source of resurrection that is confirmed.
Btw, your link to gotquestions has bogus info. First the person asserts that god heals cancer and diabetes which is unproven; however, we do know that cancer can go into remission on it's own and we know weight loss and other factors can cure diabetes. This is bogus, and you are simple-minded for even thinking it proves anything. I'm not an Atheist, but I certainly don't think the higher power interferes with man, or at least there is no proof that it does. All things you list that you claim god healed are things that often go away on their own. Does god heal the blasphemous Atheist with cancer, or the Atheist with diabetes? We can use reasoning to show it is unlikely that god is healing anybody of anything.
If believers pray for cancer to go away and the Atheist does not, yet the cancer goes away for them both, how can we conclude that god healed the believer? You can't. What about the times believers die and the Atheist cancer goes away? The amputee is a sure sign that god is not healing anyone who prays. What is the heal rate for a praying amputee? 0% What is the heal rate for an Atheist amputee? 0%
Why is it that believers do not pray for soldiers to grow limbs back? Because you know it won't happen. Ye of little faith? No, it's more like ye of a little common-sense on the matter.
You have proved nothing godrulz.
I seen an old thread of yours asking for advice on your wife's health and what treatments to take etc. Umm, pray about, then ask god to do it, if you think he heals. Or stop double talking.
No Sheep Here
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:chuckle:
Critical thinking does not lead you to believe in virgin birth, devils, angels, demons etc. You have never seen any of these things. You may as well believe in Leprechauns and Bigfoot. All of these things fall into the category of imaginary by definition due to you having to imagine they exist.
You may be a critical thinker in other things, but not when it comes to religion. No critical thinker chooses for himself any imaginary characters to believe in.
And I honestly think you could be intelligent in many things, but regarding these beliefs you are not. I've seen super smart adults turn into ignorant children as soon as religion is discussed. COMPARTMENTALIZATION!
I continue to pray for my wife's healing, but do not hide her from doctors nor demand God to answer how and when I want. Her hope is in Christ, not perfect health (she will have a new body someday).
Just because all are not healed all the time is not an argument against those who are healed (Jesus/Paul did not heal always in their day).
You have a bigger fish to fry, the existence of God. If God exists, then miracles/healing are not an issue (C.S. Lewis defends miracles despite not being charismatic).
God is supernatural! Don't listen to my fellow believers who say He is on vacation for 2000 years. Gen. 1:1; Heb. 11:6
Just because all are not healed all the time is not an argument against those who are healed (Jesus/Paul did not heal always in their day).
You have a bigger fish to fry, the existence of God. If God exists, then miracles/healing are not an issue (C.S. Lewis defends miracles despite not being charismatic).
God is supernatural! Don't listen to my fellow believers who say He is on vacation for 2000 years. Gen. 1:1; Heb. 11:6
Zeke
Well-known member
Where did I say God wasn't supernatural? isn't that an OV view:rotfl: I do claim the pentecostal period was about the hope of Israel where later you had partaking Gentiles grafted into the remnant of Israel, and that it ended after about 40 years of probation. bye bye signs and wonders, hello mystery body and calling.
God may heal, but no man today has that ministery other than fakes and frauds with cheap imitations.
No Sheep Here
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Of course you do because you believe this stuff to be true even though it doesn't work.
Of course not, because your'e not stupid. You KNOW doctors HEAL.
Then why pray? Sounds like the typical Christian excuse to me. If you pray and get the job, then god answered the pray, if not then he has something better, just hold on.
You hope you'll have a new body someday. there is nothing wrong with hoping for something, but it doesn't mean it's true.
And just because cancer goes into remission or diabetes goes away with weight loss and other chemical factors, does not mean god heals anything; if you believe that then tell diabetic Christians to stop taking insulin and to avoid cancer treatments and just pray about it. But still, the amputee is an undefeatable argument, because no one believer has ever had that prayer answered.
Again, I am not an Atheist. And C.S> Lewis arguments always seem good to quote to his simple-minded flock I see. The existence of god does not prove healing at all, though it is possible. We still need proof that this is happening. The ones who actually have true faith, pray and avoid doctors, and they die. If you believed as much as you say you do, then like them, you'd be foolish enough to hide your wife from doctors and pray that god will do the healing.
The Christian with medical insurance is just as silly as the insured church. God can't heal and god can't rebuild; you need the invention and security of man for that.
I don't, I say he has been on vacation for much longer than that. Or he could be watching and eating popcorn. You can't prove that he isn't an amoral mad scientist watching and taking notes in enjoyment either.
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You are being lied to and limiting God in a way that Scripture does not. Hyper-disp cessationism is indefensible. You focus on the fakes (which I also renounce), but fail to see the genuine (www.gfa.org credible testimonies from a credible, non-charismatic missions organization).
Sheep freak: If doctors heal, why is my wife still sick after a $15K trip to Mexico? Why do people die of cancer despite oncologists?
No Sheep Here
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double post
andyc
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The same hope that we have today. The gospel of the kingdom of God.
Acts 28:28-31
"Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him,31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.
When the Jews departed, Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. Not a new gospel.
Jesus' disciples hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit, and so they were still thinking in the natural (as you are) about what the kingdom of God actually was. When Jesus was taken up, an angel said that he would return in like manner. And Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for them, that where he as (heaven) so they would also be. This was mysterious to them until they had received the Holy Spirit.
Festivals are irrelevant to the gifts of the Spirit.
The promises we all enjoy today. At the specific time in Acts that you're quoting from, the Samaritans and gentiles hadn't yet received the gospel. It was to the Jew first, not to the Jew only.
Like we do today.
The gentiles churches operated in the gifts of the Spirit, so your dispensationism is irrelevant to the claims you made in the previous post.
Yes I am.
The gospel was to the Jew first, and then to the gentile. God accepted gentiles the same way he accepted the Jews.
The gentiles are fellow heirs in Christ of the promises to Israel (Eph 3:6).
It wasn't at that specific time that salvation was preached to the gentiles. Paul was simply explaining that he was going to turn his attention to the gentiles because the Jews in Rome kept arguing with him. In every place Paul went he first tried to reason with the Jews (Acts 13:56).
Read the rest of Ephesians 1. Paul prayed that the Ephesians eyes would be opened so that they would know the exceeding greatness of God's power. If they were already saved they would have already understood the power of salvation. Obviously Paul was praying that their eyes would be opened to the power of God that was at their disposal if they would would dare to believe and act.
Faith on the part of the prayer and receiver is a key issue. I was healed of asthma, so I've enjoyed the benefits of healing in Christ's atonement. And many other Christians have received healing through faith in Christ.
andyc
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The infraction tool is back.
andyc
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Notice how he always shows up when pentecostal issues are being discussed?
Poly
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I agree with the opening post Knight. The definition of a "miracle" in this conversation is really important too and something we would all have to agree on in order to understand each others opinions. I have never seen anything happen that can not completely be denied or disproved especially flat out physical miracles.
I have however "seen" things that "blow my mind" and I just may blurt out, "Wow! That was a miracle!!" Most of these being signs of a changed heart by God or a submission of somebody to Gods will and love. For example, Ive seen people I never ever thought would change come to the Lord unhardened and repentant, people over come personal struggles or addictions they have battled and fought with for years, or people grow leaps and bounds in their personal spiritual life. I have experienced all of this in my own personal relationship with the Lord. I know this is kind of a weird outlook but these above examples almost seem like "spiritual miracles". Is that possible? Still no matter what though these can all be deniable or disclaimed since only God can really know any mans heart. It was just a thought that popped into my mind when I read the OP that I decided to throw out there. :idea:
Shalom, Shalom!!!
Long time no see!
Zeke
Well-known member
So your hope is the resoration of the kingdom to Israel?
The kingdom of God concerns more than the hope of Israel, the gentiles didn't inherit the covenant of Hebrews 8:8-10. The hope of the one new man became the focus, and that revelation unfolded after the hope of Israels restoration was put on hold.
Paul wrote after the pentecostal period to the saved saints about being inlightened to the position of the one new man.
BS, they understood the prophetic truth relating to the promises to the nation. Jeremiah 31:37.
They all had spiritual application, just like any type, similitude, figurative, shadow, etc,...Plus your not under the imputed sins of the law like these men of Israel where, who Peter was addressing, and you have no need for remission of sin.
No those promises where only tasted of temporaly, the condistion of the kingdom restored to Israel is yet future. Which is the context of Joel a prophet to who?
People do alot of things that doesn't apply.
Hardly irrelevant, unless your a partaking Gentile, grafted into the remnant of Israel which died out with their hope until God is through with the calling of the new man. The new man is called to another hope, we go to Him in glory, not waiting for Him to come in His glory. prophecy vs mystery.
Your confussed then, are you supporting the Jew with carnel things seeing you thing your being blessed by their spiritual things?
The gospel is the hope of the sons of adam which included Jew and Gentile, the covenants made with the sons of Jacob is another issue.
No the uncircumcisied, along with the circumcision are made into a new creation, the hope is not the same one as Israels. The light unto the Gentile was no mystery hid in God, the make up of this one new man was, and is an seprate calling than the one in Hebrews 8:8-10. or the Gentiles grafted into the remnant.
I know that, Pauls statement here is different than when he stated he would now go to the Gentiles, this statement meant it was no longer through the Jews first, and their kingdom was set aside for this dispensation of grace. In the which the signs and wonders no longer manifest.
This was a prayer that they would perceive the hope of the heavenly calling and inheritence, being seated with Christ was never spoke untill the house of Judah, and Israel was set aside.
But your not part of it because your getting your spiritual blessings from the Jews, and haven't grasped the all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
Hardly in the same light as the signs and wonders that went on in the Acts period.
Knight,
Do you believe that God will, at some point in the future, begin perform miracles once more?
andyc
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Physical Israel has been restored to the Jew. The Jews are there now governing their own nation. Yet the vast majority of them are atheists. I'm surprised that you don't understand the spiritual heavenly Israel of God where there is no Jew and gentile.
You won't find this in scripture.
The reason there is one new man is because both Jews and gentiles were accepted by God without having to subscribe to the law. Circumcision no longer keeps Jews and gentile distinct.
The promises were spiritual, and the law was only a shadow until Christ could come and implement the promises. Now we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ.
Of course we need to have our sins remitted, otherwise there is no salvation.
Future?
I think you need a trip to Israel to see for yourself what God has done.
There are also a lot of people who are not enjoying the awesome blessings that are ours in Christ, because the devil has conned them out of seeing that they are for today.
There is only one hope, one gospel, one calling, and one new man. You're seeing things in the bible that simply aren't there, and ignoring the things that are there.
I'm not confused. I am a wild olive branch grafted into Abraham and am now enjoying his blessings (Gal 3:14).
:squint:
The Jew is the uncircumcised.
If you believe that, you'll believe anything.
You're just making all this up as you go along. You need to seriously and honestly sit down and think this through.
Jesus talks about heaven all the time in the gospels. Why would he bother to do that if none of his hearers were going there?
There are times in history when there are concentrated moves of God and demonstrations of his power. The reason that signs and wonders are a big deal today is because they are sensationalized by people in a world full of skeptics. Signs and wonders ought to be nothing for a christian, just like Jesus and the apostles did not make a big deal about them. Their use allows people can benefit from healing and deliverance here in this world, and the word of God is confirmed. It also a way of getting peoples attention.
If faith is not rooted and grounded in God's word, then it is floating in the air, usually when people fail in the matter of faith they go off into strange doctrines and vain philosophies.
The cross is the ONLY source of any and all of God's blessing.
There at the cross is offered atonement, the forgiveness of sins, peace for the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, comfort for our sorrow for He bore our sorrows and carried our griefs and healing for Himself bore our infirmities and carried our diseases and by His stripes we are healed.
If you can take it there is provision there also for He who was poor for our sakes became poor that we might be the riches of God. The Jews in the OT ALWAYS understood salvation as being fully delivered and made whole and Paul explains the mystery kept hidden from past generations but now made known to the Apostles and prophets by God's Spirit that we Gentiles are brought in and "made partakers of the covenants and propmises" God made with Israel. And that not by keeping the law and ordinance as they did but by the blood of the cross.
Healing is one of those promises
The preaching of the cross did not fail the disciples of the Lord. When people came they WERE healed just as when they came to the Lord during His earthly ministry they were healed.
To answer Grz concerning "word of faith" that is free will nonsense, which is why I say the believers in the Grace doctrines would not fall for the mess that makes for charismatic ministry miss and hittism.
Come back to the pure word sir
The cross is the ONLY source of any and all of God's blessing.
There at the cross is offered atonement, the forgiveness of sins, peace for the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, comfort for our sorrow for He bore our sorrows and carried our griefs and healing for Himself bore our infirmities and carried our diseases and by His stripes we are healed.
If you can take it there is provision there also for He who was poor for our sakes became poor that we might be the riches of God. The Jews in the OT ALWAYS understood salvation as being fully delivered and made whole and Paul explains the mystery kept hidden from past generations but now made known to the Apostles and prophets by God's Spirit that we Gentiles are brought in and "made partakers of the covenants and propmises" God made with Israel. And that not by keeping the law and ordinance as they did but by the blood of the cross.
Healing is one of those promises
The preaching of the cross did not fail the disciples of the Lord. When people came they WERE healed just as when they came to the Lord during His earthly ministry they were healed.
To answer Grz concerning "word of faith" that is free will nonsense, which is why I say the believers in the Grace doctrines would not fall for the mess that makes for charismatic ministry miss and hittism.
Come back to the pure word sir
andyc
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*I'm a word faith charismatic
I know that right well Andy......I do not dismiss the whole shebang, not at all, indeed the ministry through which I have mentioned to you was instrumental in my own salvation is one closely associated with Hagin, Roberts et al, T.L.Osborn....nor am I in the least ashamed to say so....I will say this.
The beginnings of ALL of those ministries [without one single exception] were out of sight more powerful and more mightily used by God than their latter years. These indeed were the ministries used of God turn WHOLE nations around especially in Africa and the Latinos.
They ALL without fail went for the confession of faith doctrines of E.Y.Kenyon in the 70's of last century, the lifting of God's anointing in great measure was dramatic and in some cases awesome to behold.
Word of faith doctrine EPITOMISES in a remarkable way the fault and fallacy of free willery.
And Evangelicals will do well to note that these men were owned as genuine servants of God by no less a figure than Billy Graham, himself a preacher along the lines of free will but never the less mighty in the service of the Lord.
The reason why the failure of Word of faith is so glaring is because the miracles and deliverances simply do not match the bold confession, there is also a question over the permanance of some healings.
My great gripe against Grace preachers is that while they cowardly stand aloof and critique the failures they actually do know the truth about miracles and healing....but they dislike the messiness of what they see. But they have the better theology which would AVOID it. We have seen them ducking and diving in this debate.
Of course the Grace/Free will is a MASSIVE DEBATE and theologians have written whole libraries on each side and it has raged for centuries...what hope of resolving it here on a forum?
While I am appalled at the hurts that have come into the church through free will preaching...well that is practically ALL there is unless God raise some up.
We won't fall out Andy but we have to recognise our differences :box:
Perhaps my comments were stronger than need be.- Status