toldailytopic: What is a miracle? Is God still performing them to this day?

[BabyChristian]

Being the skeptic that I have always been before I was a Christian, I still am that same person as a Christian and that skepticism didn't go away.

I have so many things that have happened that my jaw would have just hung down in surprise but now, after repeatedly having these strange things happen, I can't think they're coincidental.

Well I was taken to the hospital via ambulance because I was barely breathing *due to a prescription the Dr. put me on and I had mixed it with alcohol*

But the weird thing was that Greg was in church and HE NEVER EVER EVER leaves church early, he likes to stay late in fact and visit.

He just had a weird feeling. He came home and I was blue from not getting enough air. I know atheists won't think anything of it but Greg is so totally involved with our church for him to leave is just strange.

Another time my son, before he was on his meds for Schizophrenia, had taken my debit card and was suppose to be right back. Hours went by and he wasn't home. I called my bank the next morning and they said $400 had been taken out. I asked them where the machine was located that he was taking the money out and they told me. The first thing the next morning I took off to find him. He was in the worst part of Pasco, WA., where murders happen very often.

So I drove to that Conoco station (where the money had been taken out) and sat in the parking lot not knowing what to do or how I would find him. I had his license number written down sitting next to me because I was going to call the police and give his license number.

So I sat at that station lot and I said a prayer to God about finding his car (I was such a new Christian that wasn't something I would often remember to do).

I was fearful for his life being where he was and wanted to get him out of there. I barged into this house and there were people hunched down (all Hispanics) and found him but he ran and I caught him and called the police but I had handed him my debit card the day before like I normally did so he couldn't be arrested since I handed it to him. He had never stole from me before.

I could have gone any direction and felt this was fruitless but I ended up accidentally going the wrong direction on a one way street and when I realized it I knew I had to turn around and go the right direction so I started turning around and then going forward and then back and then forward and right in front of me was my son's car. I couldn't believe it! Luckily I had his license number sitting next to me and it was his car alright. I called the police and told them he stole my debit card and told them where I was but I was in a hurry and didn't wait for the police and I ran into that house to get my son out of there, fearful of him dying.

I could have been killed but my adrenaline was taking over and I didn't care.

Anyway, the mathematical chances of my finding his car in a town of 56,300 is low and all that going the wrong way on the street and having to turn around blah blah blah and have his car sitting right in front of me is miraculous to me. I was just amazed.

There are more incidences like this but I won't bore people with it.

 

[andyc]

When you locate an apostle possessing these sign gifts, let's talk.

AMR

An apostle is probably what we refer to as a missionary today. And the sign gifts were not given solely to apostles.

 

[godrulz]

An apostle is probably what we refer to as a missionary today. And the sign gifts were not given solely to apostles.

Yes, there were 12 unique apostles, but also mentions of other apostles. Proof texting aspects about the 12 does not negate the subsequent gift to the church.

I would not limit apostles to missionaries (I would even suggest a missionary teaching at a foreign school is not really an apostle...though they are 'sent ones').

 

[andyc]

Yes, there were 12 unique apostles, but also mentions of other apostles. Proof texting aspects about the 12 does not negate the subsequent gift to the church.

I would not limit apostles to missionaries (I would even suggest a missionary teaching at a foreign school is not really an apostle...though they are 'sent ones').

:thumb:

 

[No Sheep Here]

I have seen what I consider is a miracle

it was on the front wall of our church
and
I did show it to our pastor who was not impressed
but
I can't be sure of what he saw

what I saw were four faces
but
only one at a time

the shroud face of Jesus
and
God the father

Jesus at Gethsemane
and
Mary

God the Father looks like a lion
and
the reason I believe it is Him
is
because His picture is superimposed on the shroud face of Jesus

the face of Mary was superimposed on Jesus of Gethsemane
but
you could only see one of the four at any one time

Well at least your pastor is somewhat sane.

Just think if we had a person who claimed to have seen a leprechaun and said he looked like a raccoon in the face, blah, blah, blah. We'd have he/she committed! Many people in mental institutions right now claim similar things. How are you different than them?

Please tell me you are joking.

 

[No Sheep Here]

Being the skeptic that I have always been before I was a Christian, I still am that same person as a Christian and that skepticism didn't go away.

No, those days left you long ago. You are no skeptic at all concerning your religious beliefs. You may be a skeptic towards other things in life, but about god, miracles etc, no. :nono: A skeptic who believes in virgin birth? :chuckle:

 

[Lon]

It seems to me there is a lack of distinction between demonstrative miracles signifying God engaging the world and miracles that to me, are divine interventions on man's behalf (answers to prayer). I would distinguish between these and say God is uniquely involved with His people specifically answering prayer. This to me is not a debate point persay, but rather specifically about what qualifies as a 'miracle.' If someone sees God's answers to prayers as miraculous (only God could have answered) it seems reasonable to me.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When you locate an apostle possessing these sign gifts, let's talk.

AMR

*
Stephen was not an apostle, just a deacon but great signs and wonders were done by him.

These signs will follow THEM that believe.....I believe....I've seen wonderful miracles

 

[Totton Linnet]

I mean no disrespect to AMR or ANY other GRACE doctrine believers, but like MADists you never answer tough questions.

For example to deny healing in the atonement you must deny Scrpture sola and the infallibility of scripture....for Matthew clearly says that when Our Lord healed it was to fulfill Isaiah 53......"Himself bore our infirmities and carried our diseases" in Matt. ch. 8.

You also must deny another great GRACE doctrine the IMMUTABILITY of God, Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever....has He changed? when did He change? this is dispensationalism, that's what THEY say, but when you enquire about the wording of this great gospel change, what the wording of it is? how it differs from the old. old gospel we know and love "He died for sins, was buried and was raised and was SEEN" they say "ah mystery"

It sure is a mystery, so mysterious that neither they or we nor the fairies at the bottom of the garden know a thing in the world about it.

So when DID God change?

It was the CHURCH that changed, like Israel of old they very quickly turned aside from following the Lord, in the very early years we read from Ignatious and others that the EUCHARIST is to be the centre of our worship....rank idolatry, also we read that the Bishop is to be revered and obeyed as though he were Christ.

THAT is when God the Holy Ghost stopped authenticating such a gospel as this with signs and wonders and divers miracles. OF COURSE HE DID, He cannot confirm such lies as these.

Now Calvin and Luther and the others did well....but they did not do well enough, they went back to the Fathers [so called] but they did not go back to the Apostles. They like the Roman church were in too much need of the civil authorities......it is the wedding to the state, when the church decided that the arm of flesh was better and and the strength of princes preferable to the governance of the Holy Ghost.

These issues remain unresolved and until they are there will be no great miracles.

Google "Jesus healed me" you will find MASSES of evidence for miracles

 

[Totton Linnet]

It seems to me there is a lack of distinction between demonstrative miracles signifying God engaging the world and miracles that to me, are divine interventions on man's behalf (answers to prayer). I would distinguish between these and say God is uniquely involved with His people specifically answering prayer. This to me is not a debate point persay, but rather specifically about what qualifies as a 'miracle.' If someone sees God's answers to prayers as miraculous (only God could have answered) it seems reasonable to me.

*
The atonement dear Lon, the atonement...healing is as certain as forgiveness IF IT BE PREACHED

 

[Totton Linnet]

On the cross crucified
in great sorrow He died
the Giver of life is He
But my Lord is despised
and rejected of men
oh this Jesus of Calvary
*
The price for healing it was paid
as those cruel stripes were laid
within Pilate's judgement hall
but His suffering it affords
perfect healing for all
oh this Healer of men today
*
But He was wounded for our transgressions
He was bruised for our iniquities
surely He bore our sorrows
And by His stripes we are healed
*
He has healed my sick soul
He made me every whit whole
oh He'll do the very same for you
He's the same, yesterday
and today and forever
This wonderful Healer is mine

 

[andyc]

I mean no disrespect to AMR or ANY other GRACE doctrine believers, but like MADists you never answer tough questions.

For example to deny healing in the atonement you must deny Scrpture sola and the infallibility of scripture....for Matthew clearly says that when Our Lord healed it was to fulfill Isaiah 53......"Himself bore our infirmities and carried our diseases" in Matt. ch. 8.

You also must deny another great GRACE doctrine the IMMUTABILITY of God, Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever....has He changed? when did He change? this is dispensationalism, that's what THEY say, but when you enquire about the wording of this great gospel change, what the wording of it is? how it differs from the old. old gospel we know and love "He died for sins, was buried and was raised and was SEEN" they say "ah mystery"

It sure is a mystery, so mysterious that neither they or we nor the fairies at the bottom of the garden know a thing in the world about it.

So when DID God change?

It was the CHURCH that changed, like Israel of old they very quickly turned aside from following the Lord, in the very early years we read from Ignatious and others that the EUCHARIST is to be the centre of our worship....rank idolatry, also we read that the Bishop is to be revered and obeyed as though he were Christ.

THAT is when God the Holy Ghost stopped authenticating such a gospel as this with signs and wonders and divers miracles. OF COURSE HE DID, He cannot confirm such lies as these.

Now Calvin and Luther and the others did well....but they did not do well enough, they went back to the Fathers [so called] but they did not go back to the Apostles. They like the Roman church were in too much need of the civil authorities......it is the wedding to the state, when the church decided that the arm of flesh was better and and the strength of princes preferable to the governance of the Holy Ghost.

These issues remain unresolved and until they are there will be no great miracles.

Google "Jesus healed me" you will find MASSES of evidence for miracles

The thing is, if faith is a gift from God, the ability to believe for healing would be by the sovereign will of God. Of course faith is quickened within us when we are persuaded that God's word is true.

By his stripes we were healed!

It has nothing to do with God sovereignly giving me the faith to accept this, I'm persuaded by God's word.

Psalms 107:20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions.

 

[Zeke]

Let's talk exegesis before experience. God can restore neglected or lost truths and emphasize different things in history. Exegetically, one should throw out other gifts in the lists if one is going to throw out tongues/prophecy. One should negate pastors/teachers/evangelists if we don't want prophets/apostles to continue (it is not a grammatical, contextual argument to now accept 3/5, just a preconceived idea of what apostles were...there is a difference between OT prophets and the 12 apostles and NT prophets and other NT apostles in local churches besides the unique 12).

There are people with apostolic ministries overseeing large areas with multiple church planting/responsibility. Just because some groups neglect leadership truth (Catholic clergy/laity distinction) does not mean there are not churches that have these things or that God does not desire to raise up more. Many do not seek the Spirit or spiritual gifts, yet hundreds of millions do and experience the first century gifts. Those who don't elevate their lack of experience above the Word. Those that have them are being consistent with the Word, not putting experience above it (with discernment, of course, since there are fleshly or demonic counterfeits...that don't disprove the genuine).

Some things don't cross over dispensational lines, some are temporal and some are probational like the pentecostal period which was the hope of Israel.
The proof is the gifts don't manifest like they did in that taste of the prophetic kingdom offer to the house of Israel and Judah, which is the context of the hope being addressed. Hebrews tells you plainly who it is in reference to! You like most tradistionalist claim it for your selves when its clearly speaking of, and to Gods covenant people under the old sinia covenant, it has a lesson in faith for all, but its not addressed to all.

God may heal but no man has that ministery today, and from what I have seen in these so called pentecostal churches its all lame weak nonsense. The great pretend!

 

[andyc]

Some things don't cross over dispensational lines, some are temporal and some are probational like the pentecostal period which was the hope of Israel.
The proof is the gifts don't manifest like they did in that taste of the prophetic kingdom offer to the house of Israel and Judah, which is the context of the hope being addressed. Hebrews tells you plainly who it is in reference to! You like most tradistionalist claim it for your selves when its clearly speaking of, and to Gods covenant people under the old sinia covenant, it has a lesson in faith for all, but its not addressed to all.

God may heal but no man has that ministery today, and from what I have seen in these so called pentecostal churches its all lame weak nonsense. The great pretend!

I'm sorry but what I highlighted in bold you're going to have to prove from the word, and you're simply not going to be able to. you have absolutely no chance of backing up from scripture what you said here.

Ya know, it really saddens me when people prefer to reject what the word teaches as a result of fear. People who exalt theology over the things that Christ suffered to bless us with, really need a good shaking. I remember the first time I read the book "chasing the dragon" by Jackie Pullinger, and heard about people being miraculously delivered of drug addiction and being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, it excited me. I got really enthusiastic about these things. I had no theological problems with it at all.

I'm reminded of Jesus talking about the rich man in hell who asked to go and warn his family of the coming judgement. Jesus explained to the rich man that if they did not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rose from the dead.

Some people just won't hear the word, even when its spoken by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[godrulz]

*
The atonement dear Lon, the atonement...healing is as certain as forgiveness IF IT BE PREACHED

This may be Word of Faith, but it is not biblical. I believe in divine healing, but proof texting Is. 53 is not the way to go. If what you say is true, we should be able to confess that we are already healed by His stripes and be instantly healed all of the time (and never die?). Anyone who confesses sin and calls on the name of God is forgiven/saved. Many godly, sincere Christians have confessed and believed related to healing, yet are not healed. Some of these hyper-faith leaders have gone to jail, been sued, or died themselves as people under their influence withhold necessary medical treatment. This is Christian Science denial, not biblical Christianity.

My Pentecostal denomination also talks about healing in the atonement, but it is not identical to salvation. Our ultimate physical perfection comes at resurrection/glorification. Some are divinely healed now, but others are not. The sovereignty of God, not a fixed formula, must also be factored in with faith.

 

[godrulz]

Some things don't cross over dispensational lines, some are temporal and some are probational like the pentecostal period which was the hope of Israel.
The proof is the gifts don't manifest like they did in that taste of the prophetic kingdom offer to the house of Israel and Judah, which is the context of the hope being addressed. Hebrews tells you plainly who it is in reference to! You like most tradistionalist claim it for your selves when its clearly speaking of, and to Gods covenant people under the old sinia covenant, it has a lesson in faith for all, but its not addressed to all.

God may heal but no man has that ministery today, and from what I have seen in these so called pentecostal churches its all lame weak nonsense. The great pretend!

God and Satan are still supernatural. In your view, God now resorts to natural, while Satan continues in the supernatural.

Pentecostal power is the precedent for the Church Age, not the catalyst that ceases because it was not the ideal to begin with?

 

[Zeke]

I'm sorry but what I highlighted in bold you're going to have to prove from the word, and you're simply not going to be able to. you have absolutely no chance of backing up from scripture what you said here.

Ya know, it really saddens me when people prefer to reject what the word teaches as a result of fear. People who exalt theology over the things that Christ suffered to bless us with, really need a good shaking. I remember the first time I read the book "chasing the dragon" by Jackie Pullinger, and heard about people being miraculously delivered of drug addiction and being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, it excited me. I got really enthusiastic about these things. I had no theological problems with it at all.

I'm reminded of Jesus talking about the rich man in hell who asked to go and warn his family of the coming judgement. Jesus explained to the rich man that if they did not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rose from the dead.

Some people just won't hear the word, even when its spoken by Jesus and the apostles.

Whats the hope in the Acts period where we see the real gifts of the Spirit manifesting?
You claim I have no scripture, lets see if I do or don't!

What does the Acts period teach about the hope being offered?
Acts 1:6, shows the main concern of the circumcision at that time which were the only ones being addressed concerning their promises. Acts 2:1, was this something the gentile world kept? Acts 2:5, also shows who was being addressed as does Acts 2:22, and the method used by God which was signs and wonders, it was all about their promises Acts 2:39, Acts 3:22-26.
Was it an offer, or was it the establishment of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel? Jesus told them it wasn't for them to know Acts1:7, He left it in the hands of the Father as to when it would take place, they all preached like the end was near and day was at hand 1Peter 4:7 Romans 13:11,12 . The foreknowledge of God knew that they would be judged, and scattered among the nations for rejecting the Son and the Spirit. After the 40 year probational taste Hebrews 6:5, of their new national covenant established in the world to come, Hebrews 8:8, Jeremiah 31:31, were promised by God to them not you.

Unless your a partaking Gentile today grafted Romans 11:17, into the remnant of Israels Romans 11:5, and partaking of their spiritual blessings Romans 15:27. Which your not.

The hope when all the penetcostal signs and gifts were operating was within that taste of Israels hope, which only lasted through that 40 years period likened to the wilderness period when Moses was their Saviour 1Cor 10:1.

Paul states his ministery was confined to the prophets and Moses Acts 26:22, concerning the hope of Israel Acts 26:6-7, Acts 28:20,and that blessing on the Gentiles Acts 26:23, Romans 15:9.

That hope ended along with the signs and wonders forth-telling its coming when Paul quoted from Isaiah, at Acts 28:25-27, and told them the salvation of God would now be sent unto the Gentiles.

No more Jew first, no more headship of the Jew over the Gentiles, a new man and hope was revealed, with a new place of blessing Ephesians 1:3, in heavenly places and all spiritual, no Jew or Gentile, male or Female, all equal footing called far above the heavenlies, no more partaking Gentiles in the mystery body, no more gifts of healing, dead stay dead, wheel chairs are still needed, and the blind are still blind.

God may heal but no man has that ministery today, about 99.9% of these so called churches need new elders because their faith ain't cutting it according to James 5:13-15.

 

[Lighthouse]

No, those days left you long ago. You are no skeptic at all concerning your religious beliefs. You may be a skeptic towards other things in life, but about god, miracles etc, no. :nono: A skeptic who believes in virgin birth? :chuckle:

If you actually knew anything about Christianity you might not be such a joke.

 

[Butterfly]

There is no exegetical basis for cessationism relating to miracles, healings, deliverance, gifts of the Spirit for the Church Age. Pentecostals are the largest and fastest group group of Christianity and rightly emphasize and experience the person and work of the Holy Spirit according to the Word as the first century church did.

Looks like nothings changed. Same old repetitive statements are made, over and over and over. Seven years of Rodgulz' mantras.

:deadhorse:

Not ONE dead person has been raised from the dead since the 1st Century. Twenty centuries later, still no dead people being raised from the dead.

I could care less about Pentecostals being the fastest growing religious group. Who cares? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Does that make them right?

:wave:

 

[No Sheep Here]

If you actually knew anything about Christianity you might not be such a joke.

If you engaged in critical thinking you would not have beliefs that are a joke.