toldailytopic: What have you learned from the Occupy Wall Street movement?

[aCultureWarrior]

As we've seen throughout history, right-wing free market ideology doesn't work. But you don't know history. You don't even remember what happened in 1929, let alone 2008.

Yeah, had only Marx or Lenin been around when the Founding Fathers started our Christian based free market economy, they could have shown them how to REALLY make a successful economic system.

Trickle-down doesn't trickle. The magic is the deception of free market ideology that pulls the wool over your eyes. You have been hoodwincked very severely. "Free market" works for the 1% and hurts everyone else. The rich today are the thieves, not the liberals. Social programs help the rich as well.

So the guy that starts a business, hires people and pays them wages, who in turn spends money at other businesses, etc. etc. etc. (hence the money "trickling down") is a bad concept and doesn't work?

 

[The Barbarian]

Another fringe element:


According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 23.9% of Americans identify as Catholic.

barbie, what do you think of these fringe elements?

Biggest single denomination in America, in fact. A plurality of Americans are Catholic. But that's not what makes it right. On the other hand, Gallup says about 51% of Americans think humans evolved from other organisms. Most of them think God was involved.

So that's a majority. Meanwhile, a plurality of Americans think the tea party and their fellow extremists on the left are harmful or irrelevant to America.

 

[rocketman]

IT should be obvious that quoting or posting a few protesters who are not sure how to speak their message means nothing. These folks are not pundits or politicians. But this one is very good:

You guys can't see the point I made above. It is NOT obvious to you. That really shows just WHO are the ones who are incoherent. You guys are.

Than why can't they organize their demands into a coherent message where the masses can see the point, it seems just the fringe as yourself eameece understand it. The truth of the matter is, the masses don't take them seriously because of the lack of organization and coherency concerning their desires. And so it goes...

 

[The Barbarian]

The lesson seems to be that the American people are willing to give a new group the benefit of a doubt, but if they become radicalized, it's over. So it went with tea party and occupy.

 

[some other dude]

barbie baits the hook, casts offshore and waits patiently:

The lesson seems to be that the American people are willing to give a new group the benefit of a doubt, but if they become radicalized, it's over. So it went with tea party and occupy.

 

[rocketman]

barbie baits the hook, casts offshore and waits patiently:

:chuckle:

 

[eameece]

Yeah, had only Marx or Lenin been around when the Founding Fathers started our Christian based free market economy, they could have shown them how to REALLY make a successful economic system.

Marx or Lenin are not democratic socialists or liberals. They are communists. Sorry to have to point out the obvious again. Would you like me to refer to your point of view as fascist?

So the guy that starts a business, hires people and pays them wages, who in turn spends money at other businesses, etc. etc. etc. (hence the money "trickling down") is a bad concept and doesn't work?

"trickling down" is a bad concept and doesn't work. The historical record is clear. It's more complex than just a guy going into business. If he doesn't have to contribute anything to society, or obey any standards, then his employees will not have enough wages or good enough working conditions.

You put taxes on business, and then the government can stimulate growth with investments and infrastructure. Then your guy will have some customers. You can't start a business with no customers. When only the rich have money, your guy can't go into business. And in a trickle-down economy, small businesses are driven out. Only the greediest businesses survive in a trickle-down free market economy, and we have a corporate economy that can buy the government, which is what it has done.

 

[eameece]

Than why can't they organize their demands into a coherent message where the masses can see the point, it seems just the fringe as yourself eameece understand it. The truth of the matter is, the masses don't take them seriously because of the lack of organization and coherency concerning their desires. And so it goes...

Lack of organization doesn't mean anything. Whatever works. Coherency has been expressed in their various statements. I hope they will get organized better when it suits their needs to be more effective in the political arena.

You don't know what "the masses" think. Most here at TOL reject them out of hand because they don't agree, and aren't necessarily Christian conservatives like them.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Yeah, had only Marx or Lenin been around when the Founding Fathers started our Christian based free market economy, they could have shown them how to REALLY make a successful economic system.

Marx or Lenin are not democratic socialists or liberals. They are communists. Sorry to have to point out the obvious again. Would you like me to refer to your point of view as fascist?

One only need look at the signs or talk to the vast majority of the people to know what their ideology is:

In case you're not familiar with the Workers World Party (as if the name itself isn't descriptive enough), here's some background:

"The distant origins of the WWP go back to the Global Class War Tendency, led by Sam Marcy and Vincent Copeland, within the Socialist Workers Party."

Ideologically, the WWP is orthodox Marxist-Leninist. The Party's Trotskyist origins are reflected in much of Sam Marcy's early literature. However, Marcy also continued to uphold the USSR as a socialist state until the very end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_World_Party#History



Quote:
So the guy that starts a business, hires people and pays them wages, who in turn spends money at other businesses, etc. etc. etc. (hence the money "trickling down") is a bad concept and doesn't work?

"trickling down" is a bad concept and doesn't work. The historical record is clear. It's more complex than just a guy going into business. If he doesn't have to contribute anything to society, or obey any standards, then his employees will not have enough wages or good enough working conditions.

What do you mean "If he doesn't have to contribute anything to society"?

He's paying taxes, employing people, "distributing the wealth" by buying manufactured products and selling them. How is that not "contributing anything to society"?

You put taxes on business, and then the government can stimulate growth with investments and infrastructure.

Infrastructure? While we need roads, which is the responsibility of the government (they do however contract those jobs out to the private sector), how does that by itself stimulate anything if private businesses are so heavily taxed that they can't afford to stay in business?

Only the greediest businesses survive in a trickle-down free market economy,

Wrong. Only those that are providing a commodity that the public wants will stay in business. It's called "supply and demand".

and we have a corporate economy that can buy the government, which is what it has done.

Amen to that. You won't find me defending multinational corporations, as they've not only taken taxpayers dollars to help their failing business, many of them support immoral causes such as abortion and same sex marriage.

If these multinational corporations weren't given special tax breaks, then the free market and the smaller businesses that take advantage of the free market would be able to compete much better.

 

[eameece]

In case you're not familiar with the Workers World Party...

Didn't I point out that you can't take a few protesters on you tube (or holding up a sign) and define the movement with them. Use their declarations passed in their general assemblies. I agree with most of what they say.

What do you mean "If he doesn't have to contribute anything to society"?

Your trickle-downers want to remove taxes and regulations.

He's paying taxes, employing people, "distributing the wealth" by buying manufactured products and selling them. How is that not "contributing anything to society"?

I don't object to people going into business and hiring people. I did that myself.
What you Republicans want to do is allow them to pursue their business in any way they wish, regardless of whom it hurts. What about that do you not understand?

Infrastructure? While we need roads, which is the responsibility of the government (they do however contract those jobs out to the private sector), how does that by itself stimulate anything if private businesses are so heavily taxed that they can't afford to stay in business?

Because that is just a slogan. Noone is taxing anyone so much that they can't afford to stay in business. In this day and age, under Reagan, taxes are too low. Except perhaps payroll taxes, which are not progressive. But people get that back and more when they retire.

Only those that are providing a commodity that the public wants will stay in business. It's called "supply and demand".

Sometimes true, but those who go out of business today are frequently forced out. They can't afford to stay in business because one greedy company buys up all the others, or because big companies can outsource and use cheap labor abroad. I also feel sorry for businesses that fail because everything is getting computerized; we may regret this later. But I know things change.

Amen to that. You won't find me defending multinational corporations, as they've not only taken taxpayers dollars to help their failing business....
If these multinational corporations weren't given special tax breaks, then the free market and the smaller businesses that take advantage of the free market would be able to compete much better.

Well then we agree, to that extent (minus your social-conservative stuff, of course; or I guess I should call it your "culture warrior" stuff).

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Amen to that. You won't find me defending multinational corporations, as they've not only taken taxpayers dollars to help their failing business....
If these multinational corporations weren't given special tax breaks, then the free market and the smaller businesses that take advantage of the free market would be able to compete much better.

Well then we agree, to that extent (minus your social-conservative stuff, of course; or I guess I should call it your "culture warrior" stuff).

I see that you didn't mention my "social-conservative stuff", so I'll say it again:

"...many of them [multinational corporations] support immoral causes such as abortion and same sex marriage."

That must put you and your fellow Occupy Wall Street Marxists in a real quandary eameece.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Octopi Wall Street

 

[eameece]

I see that you didn't mention my "social-conservative stuff", so I'll say it again:

"...many of them [multinational corporations] support immoral causes such as abortion and same sex marriage."

That must put you and your fellow Occupy Wall Street Marxists in a real quandary eameece.

Why would that put me in a quandry?

Some of the OWS occupiers are Marxists; most are not.

Are you a fascist?

You culture warriors fight the abortion battle because you want the issue in order to suppress women. The battle can be dissolved with adequate use of the abortion pill. That takes the issue off the table, unless you want to quarrel over the first few hours of a fertilized egg's life. Keeping the battle going does nothing to improve the quality of life in this country. It is only an excuse to vote Republican, and thereby keep our corrupt corporate rulers in power. As for gay marriage, your opposition to that is nothing but religious, fanatical bashing of people different from you. It has nothing to do with Occupy, or with what our nation needs.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Marx or Lenin are not democratic socialists or liberals. They are communists. Sorry to have to point out the obvious again. Would you like me to refer to your point of view as fascist?

Sure! Any :Commie: would since such's worldview is that of the blind collective.

"trickling down" is a bad concept and doesn't work.

Yes, it does, although roughly stated.

The historical record is clear. It's more complex than just a guy going into business. If he doesn't have to contribute anything to society, or obey any standards, then his employees will not have enough wages or good enough working conditions.

Some ideas work and some fail.

You put taxes on business, and then the government can stimulate growth with investments and infrastructure.

:darwinsm: You mean theft plus tax-and-spend. We have three recent years experience with exactly that. Result: a wreaked economy.

Then your guy will have some customers. You can't start a business with no customers. When only the rich have money, your guy can't go into business. And in a trickle-down economy, small businesses are driven out. Only the greediest businesses survive in a trickle-down free market economy, and we have a corporate economy that can buy the government, which is what it has done.

:darwinsm: The government creates customers? How? By forcing them to buy a product or a service? If those in government put themselves in a position where they can be bought, you have exactly what we have - corrupt people in government. Corporations don't force people to buy their product. However, under your wonderful system, it is cheaper for corporations to buy politicians who will, in turn, force people to buy their product or service.

 

[Totton Linnet]

And as we've seen throughout history, socialism doesn't work.

Even if legalized theft were universally accepted (the forceful taking from the "haves" and giving to the "have nots" is theft), those that were given something for nothing would end up broke, and those that knew how to make their money work would be financially successful again. (You'd be back to square one Totton)

Let the free market work it's magic, it helps the poor as well.

Socialism and Communism only means the same thing in America.

You are so-o brainwashed, it is not other peoples money I want or care about...the haves do not pay their fair share like I pay my hard earned money in taxes....it is OUR money, it is about time we had a better share of it.

Trickle down prosperity is a line only the Republicans could swallow.

Socialism is simply about pooling our money to afford a better life for all. Who made Henry Ford rich? the workers.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Capitalism has worked that way for thousands of years.

No, it isn't. Socialism steals capital and concentrates it in the hands of a few despots.

That is the essence of Socialism.

:darwinsm:

Your social order is a mess and you have been under socialism for the last 50 years.

The people of Europe have prospered under socialism for 50 years

The present poverty is brought about by the capitalists.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
I see that you didn't mention my "social-conservative stuff", so I'll say it again:

"...many of them [multinational corporations] support immoral causes such as abortion and same sex marriage."

That must put you and your fellow Occupy Wall Street Marxists in a real quandary eameece.

Why would that put me in a quandry?

By literally spitting at the corporations that are in support of your social philosophies. You acknowledged what part of your social philosophies are below.

Some of the OWS occupiers are Marxists; most are not.

While some have legitimate complaints about the government bailing out failing corporations, most are upset because it's not THEIR CAUSE that is getting the gubermint handout.

I've seen them up close and personal here in Seattle.

Are you a fascist?

Ummm...can I be a "statist" and a "fascist" too?

You culture warriors fight the abortion battle because you want the issue in order to suppress women.

Yet you baby murderers aren't smart enough to acknowledge that the larger percent of those babies that are murdered in the womb out of convenience would have grown up to be "women" someday.

 

[rocketman]

You culture warriors fight the abortion battle because you want the issue in order to suppress women.

ememe's desperate attempt at justification...FAIL!

Yet you baby murderers aren't smart enough to acknowledge that the larger percent of those babies that are murdered in the womb out of convenience would have grown up to be "women" someday.

The logical response...Well said aCW...:thumb:

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Socialism and Communism only means the same thing in America.

When in doubt, ask a communist:

"The distant origins of the WWP (Workers World Party) go back to the Global Class War Tendency, led by Sam Marcy and Vincent Copeland, within the Socialist Workers Party."

Ideologically, the WWP is orthodox Marxist-Leninist. The Party's Trotskyist origins are reflected in much of Sam Marcy's early literature. However, Marcy also continued to uphold the USSR as a socialist state until the very end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers..._Party#History

You are so-o brainwashed, it is not other peoples money I want or care about...the haves do not pay their fair share like I pay my hard earned money in taxes....it is OUR money, it is about time we had a better share of it.

Here's where your entire attempt at an argument is flawed Totton:

You want big government, a government to take care of it's populace from cradle to grave, and you want everyone to pay for it.

Those kind of government's have never worked and never will for the simple reason they take "incentive" and "motivation" out of the playing field.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When in doubt, ask a communist:

"The distant origins of the WWP (Workers World Party) go back to the Global Class War Tendency, led by Sam Marcy and Vincent Copeland, within the Socialist Workers Party."

Ideologically, the WWP is orthodox Marxist-Leninist. The Party's Trotskyist origins are reflected in much of Sam Marcy's early literature. However, Marcy also continued to uphold the USSR as a socialist state until the very end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers..._Party#History



Here's where your entire attempt at an argument is flawed Totton:

You want big government, a government to take care of it's populace from cradle to grave, and you want everyone to pay for it.

Those kind of government's have never worked and never will for the simple reason they take "incentive" and "motivation" out of the playing field.

*
I AM everyone who is paying for it, it is OUR money not other peoples money....the rich do not pay their proper taxes.

Socialism comes from the church, you need to go back and study history better....read about Wenceslas, read about John Wesley, read about the Salvation Army.

Such historians as Winston Churchill and Lloyd George and Asquith who were the political leaders at the turn of the 20th century all acknowledge that it was the work of the Salvation Army coupled with the preaching of it's leader General Booth which SHAMED the British government into social reform which paved the way for the welfare state.

It was the forming of unions of WORKING people sick to death of living in UTTER depravation and penury and being shipped off to a miserable death in the trenches of Flanders which provided the base for the emergence of the British Labour party.

Americans have been brainwashed long enough, it is time to open your eyes.