toldailytopic: Theistic evolution: best arguments for, or against.

[Angel4Truth]

YE Creationism:
The God of the Bible created all life ex nihilo (out of nothing) during six, 24 hour days of abrupt Creation.
http://www.2cor13verse5.com/?tag=ex-nihilo

God:
Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

How does that disprove young earth creationism? Also who said it was 24 hour days?

 

[voltaire]

He did later concede that it was much older than he estimated.



You mean with an "appearance of age", including all the elements already differentiated, as though they had been sorted by gravity? If you take away the latent gravitational heat from that sorting, and the heat from impact of accretion of solid bodies to form the Earth, then it would be really, really old.

The primary heating source would then be radioactive breakdown in the core and mantle. I don't remember hearing how long that takes to get to the lithosphere, but it takes about a million years for it to get out of the sun, a fluid body, and convection works a lot faster than conduction in rock. And that means it would go a lot slower in the Earth, but the distance would be a lot less.

I should know that, but I don't. I'll see what I can find.



There's considerable evidence for that in the form of crater data, meteorite data, and of course the physics of system formation (we are now discovering more about that in other systems)

Poofing is not merely an insult to God, it's contrary to the evidence we do have.

If you take away the latent gravitational heat from that sorting, and the heat from impact of accretion of solid bodies to form the Earth, then it would be really, really old.
This doesn't make any sense


Poofing is not merely an insult to God, it's contrary to the evidence we do have.

I didn't say anything about "poofing". I said instantaneously and miraculous created. This is anything but an insult to God. On the contrary, it glorifies him in the best way possible.


Do you have an estimate of the total amount of heat generated by radioactive decay in the earth over 4.5 billion years? That was the point of my post that you ignored in typical fashion in favor of spewing your regular propaganda.

 

[eameece]

Genesis uses the same word for day before the creation of the sun as it does after the creation of the sun.

Why on earth would you assume that the length of the day changed?

Because "on earth" only the Sun can measure the length of a day.

Duh....

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Thereby God used the definition of "day" used on the first day, not the fourth. So indeed it could have been hundreds of millions of years.

 

[Stripe]

Where? Which journals have these peer reviewed and passed papers appeared in? Links? I've yet to see you or anyone else provide any scientific evidence against an old earth/evolution. If you could you could make fame and fortune by nullifying what 99.99% of the global scientific community actually hold as established. The evidence for an old earth/evolution are abundant Stripe, but of course you already know that.....

Um, 'creationwiki' is hardly an unbiased source itself is it? And why the differentiation between secular and non? Science is science and plenty of Christians go with an old earth/evolution. Do you think there's a conspiracy to suppress compelling evidence for a young earth?

Yes, and for obvious reasons such can only have proper credence when it holds up to due process and peer review away from such bias. If there is compelling evidence for a young earth then unless you're a global conspiracist there's nothing stopping such from coming to light.

The best evidence for the theistic evolutionists. :chuckle:

The majority of YEC science is not published in secular peer reviewed journals but there are some papers that make through the evolutionary bias of secular journals. http://creationwiki.org/Peer_reviewhttp://creationwiki.org/Creation_in_secular_journal_(philosophy)
http://creationwiki.org/Creation_in_secular_journal_(biology)
http://creationwiki.org/Creation_in_secular_journal_(cosmology)
http://creationwiki.org/Creation_in_secular_journal_(geology)

There are plenty of other publications that accept peer reviewed material from YECs.

Poofing is not merely an insult to God, it's contrary to the evidence we do have.

You should stop using that word then. :thumb:

 

[eameece]

That is exactly right. They allow themselves to take some things as literary device when there is absolute certainty in their own mind, yet they will not allow others to accept the probability that other things in Genesis are literary devices. This is the game they play, and it is transparent.

YECs want to monopolize the word of God and call the shots. In a lot of cases that is because they lack the intellectual skills to develop a clear reasoned argument for themselves. So they compensate by claiming "divine authority", ignoring the fact that even understanding their claimed "plain reading" requires at least some level of reasoning and interpretation. It really is just a bunch of hogwash, yet since they have fooled themsleves so easily, they think the same is true for everyone else.

I think that's true, and I think the more significant problem is that these folks are basing their claim on "authority." Conservatives in general and fundamentalists in particular are authoritarian. They want to uphold authority. The Bible is literally true, because the Bible says so. Case closed. No need to use your own mind; that's disrespectful of authority. They have no confidence in their own intellectual ability, so it's better just to obey authority. If everyone uses their own mind, that's chaos and anarchy. It's better just to do what the preacher says. Father knows best.

 

[eameece]

How does that disprove young earth creationism? Also who said it was 24 hour days?

If it's not 24-hour days, then it can be billions of years. You have just admitted it. That's evolution.

 

[Angel4Truth]

If it's not 24-hour days, then it can be billions of years. You have just admitted it. That's evolution.

Excellent logic there, because i did not tell you how long i believe it is supported by scripture, it can be anything under the sun.

With that kind of logic, its no wonder you believe in evolution.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Where did I say science is an enemy of God? Science is right on some things and wrong on others, i don't consider it to be infallible.

You pretty much say it when you criticize that which doesn't support a young earth and then criticize those who actually believe but not in an ardent literal reading of creation. If science is "wrong" in regards to the common consensus regarding the age of the earth then why is it? What is your knowledge on the subject?

And no, you don't get the relevance of what i posted, or you wouldn't have posted what you did. There was relevance though, right now you are regurgitating what you 'believe' all of us creationists think, without regard to anything specific I've said at all.

Oh ok. Then please tell me what your apparent point was in posting those verses just to be 100% clear as regards your intent. And just where have I stated what I 'believe all you creationists think' let alone regurgitated?

You don't get it, because you do not believe the bible, are you a theistic evolutionist? Or just an evolutionist?

The irony. You accuse me of the ^ but because I don't hold to a literal reading I don't believe the bible. I guess you must know just how all those 'theistic evolutionists' think then? Oh, and I'm not just an "evolutionist"....lain:

My post is relevant to those who believe in God, believe in the immaculate conception and other things in the bible, but do not believe in a 6 day creation which is a disconnect, why would one believe the other things but not that?

Why would one read the parables as actual events? It's only a 'disconnect' because you determine to read something literally which is easily read as allegorical.

So unless you are a christian, you do not understand what i posted, but then again, i could see that because of your reply.

Wow, arrogant much? I won't stoop to the same.

:e4e:

 

[some other dude]

Show me where the bible rejects young earth creationism with the bible instead of your take on it. Post scripture.

barbie's arguing against a facet of creationism that nobody here holds to.

It's called erecting a strawman.

 

[Arthur Brain]

The best evidence for the theistic evolutionists. :chuckle:

Typical non response.

:yawn:

There are plenty of other publications that accept peer reviewed material from YECs.

Then hey dude, provide it! :idea:

:thumb:

lain:

 

[eameece]

All that is needed for evening and morning is a light source and a rotating Earth.

But there is no mention of the earth rotating. "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" ( Genesis 1:5 ) Nowhere is there any indication how long this "day" is.

Since only the earth rotating around the Sun (or the Sun appearing to rise and set) can give us a 24-hour day, there is no indication that a "day" is 24 hours.

On the fourth "day":

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years." Genesis 1:14

"And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night" Genesis 1:16

God made the stars, Sun and Moon and stars, for telling the time, and for signs. That means God made the stars for the purpose of astrology (for signs).

 

[Arthur Brain]

How does that disprove young earth creationism? Also who said it was 24 hour days?

Well......

How many hours do you think constituted a day back then if not 24 if you're being literal? If you're saying it could have been different then a day could have been anything from hours to years couldn't it? Even decades.....centuries.....etc......

 

[Angel4Truth]

You pretty much say it when you criticize that which doesn't support a young earth and then criticize those who actually believe but not in an ardent literal reading of creation.

In other words, you created what i think instead of listening to me tell you what i think.

If science is "wrong" in regards to the common consensus regarding the age of the earth then why is it? What is your knowledge on the subject?

There is no common consensus on this issue. Method, timeline, age, etc.. are all several theories, no consensus, there isn't even agreement among scientists.

I have taken college chemistry, biology, microbiology, human anatomy and physiology. And all of it matters none to whether or not I trust God vs trusting men.

Oh ok. Then please tell me what your apparent point was in posting those verses just to be 100% clear as regards your intent. And just where have I stated what I 'believe all you creationists think' let alone regurgitated?

You said that I believe science is an enemy to God, i never said that, thats a common regurgitation hurled at those who do not believe evolution.

My point again (since it doesnt seem you are reading what im saying) was for those who believe in the immaculate conception, and other parts of the bible. If this isnt clear this time, let me know.

I even asked if you believe those things and you haven't responded.

The irony. You accuse me of the ^ but because I don't hold to a literal reading I don't believe the bible. I guess you must know just how all those 'theistic evolutionists' think then? Oh, and I'm not just an "evolutionist"....lain:

I dont know what you believe, you wont answer me when i ask those things and i even told you who my post was for.

Why would one read the parables as actual events? It's only a 'disconnect' because you determine to read something literally which is easily read as allegorical.

If you think that genesis 1 is a parable, then you dont know what a parable is.

Wow, arrogant much? I won't stoop to the same.

:e4e:

Nothing arrogant about a fact. Unless one is a christian, they do not understand the things of the Spirit. One has to have God's Spirit to understand it.

Thats like saying a doctor who specializes in brain surgery is arrogant if they say a fireman isnt qualified to do brain surgery.

 

[Stripe]

Then hey dude, provide it!

Why? What evidence will it be? :idunno:

But there is no mention of the earth rotating. "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" ( Genesis 1:5 ) Nowhere is there any indication how long this "day" is.Since only the earth rotating around the Sun (or the Sun appearing to rise and set) can give us a 24-hour day, there is no indication that a "day" is 24 hours. On the fourth "day":"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years." Genesis 1:14"And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night" Genesis 1:16God made the stars, Sun and Moon and stars, for telling the time, and for signs. That means God made the stars for the purpose of astrology (for signs).

Why do you think the Earth was not rotating and what started it?

 

[voltaire]

But there is no mention of the earth rotating. "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" ( Genesis 1:5 ) Nowhere is there any indication how long this "day" is.

Since only the earth rotating around the Sun (or the Sun appearing to rise and set) can give us a 24-hour day, there is no indication that a "day" is 24 hours.

On the fourth "day":

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years." Genesis 1:14

"And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night" Genesis 1:16

God made the stars, Sun and Moon and stars, for telling the time, and for signs. That means God made the stars for the purpose of astrology (for signs).

The plants were created before the sun and the stars. If the time that elapsed from the creation of plants was greater than a week(in today's time scale) before sunlight was converting water and carbon dioxide into glucose then all the created plants would die. That puts an upper limit on a day's length at a week in today's time scale.

 

[eameece]

Excellent logic there, because i did not tell you how long i believe it is supported by scripture, it can be anything under the sun.

Tell me the length of a "day" "supported by scripture"

(Hint, there is none)

 

[Angel4Truth]

Tell me the length of a "day" "supported by scripture"

(Hint, there is none)

Psalm 90:4

2 Peter 3:8

ouch, how does it feel to be wrong?

 

[Stripe]

Then hey dude, provide it!

Why? What evidence will it be? :idunno:

But there is no mention of the earth rotating. "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" ( Genesis 1:5 ) Nowhere is there any indication how long this "day" is.Since only the earth rotating around the Sun (or the Sun appearing to rise and set) can give us a 24-hour day, there is no indication that a "day" is 24 hours. On the fourth "day":"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years." Genesis 1:14"And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night" Genesis 1:16God made the stars, Sun and Moon and stars, for telling the time, and for signs. That means God made the stars for the purpose of astrology (for signs).

Why do you think the Earth was not rotating and what started it?

 

[eameece]

I have taken college chemistry, biology, microbiology, human anatomy and physiology. And all of it matters none to whether or not I trust God vs trusting men.

Who wrote the Bible?

Who created "men" in the image of God?

Nothing arrogant about a fact. Unless one is a christian, they do not understand the things of the Spirit. One has to have God's Spirit to understand it.

Thats like saying a doctor who specializes in brain surgery is arrogant if they say a fireman isnt qualified to do brain surgery.

You ignore facts.

You are extremely arrogant in saying one has to be a christian to have God's Spirit. You are extremely arrogant in saying you have God's Spirit, and other christians and non-christians do not. Who gave you authority to claim God's Spirit for yourself and deny it to others?

You folks are the bane of this country. So is Romney, except it is spelled Bain.

 

[eameece]

Why do you think the Earth was not rotating and what started it?

:yawn:

The Bible said nothing about the earth rotating, so you have no right to claim it does.

The Bible says on the fourth day God created the Sun so we can tell time. That's what "started it."