toldailytopic: The Palestinians vs. the Israelis - war is beginning to brew. Who's si

[Tambora]

You may well have meant 'anyone' but it still wasn't an issue that I raised in my post. My post was in answer to the question "Whose side are you on - the Palestinians or the Israelis?" The Israelis' spiritual standing with God is not an issue here. The question was a political one. And even if one believes that the Israelis are somehow a special people, it only results in a coloured political attitude towards them and nothing more than that.

Even - most of the world is out of fellowship with God, let alone the Israelis or the Palestinians. If it is relevant as you seem to think it is, that the Israelis are objects of God's wrath, then why make the point in reference to Israelis as if that made any difference to the issue? If most of the world is so, then there is no point in discussing the OP. There wouldn't be any point in discussing any political question. 'Where do you stand on the Tamil issue?' - Oh, nowhere because they are both the same, they are all lost. 'Whose side are you on, the democrats or the republicans?' Oh, neither because I am born again and they are both the same - all lost.

It's easy to see how bad people are. It is harder - but much more rewarding - to look positively. It is easy to watch idly, never taking a stand or making a decision, comforting yourself with the thought that all these people are going to hell anyway so why should I bother to help them?

The facts are that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and they rule their own people by terror let alone create terror for the Israelis. And in case you have not understood, my view has nothing to do with the Israelis being special or anything like that.

 

[Lovebug]

Desert Reign;3275841]You may well have meant 'anyone' but it still wasn't an issue that I raised in my post. My post was in answer to the question "Whose side are you on - the Palestinians or the Israelis?"

If you are a mature Christian, who has put the schoolmaster away, you cannot choose sides, that was my point.

If you choose sides, you are making a judgement 'after the flesh', and have become a judge, and are not acting in love...so? Did you or did you not choose a side? I said you seemed to be...when you claimed Israel had a right to defend itself, but, you forgot that the muslims are defending themselves likewise, or would you deny that fact? The point being is that we as Christians should be thinking like Jesus Christ, who does not judge after the 'flesh'.

The Israelis' spiritual standing with God is not an issue here. The question was a political one. And even if one believes that the Israelis are somehow a special people, it only results in a coloured political attitude towards them and nothing more than that.

If the question was merely a political one, you prove none can be considered having more a right to defend themselves, don't you?

It was you who claimed that Israel had a right to defend themselves. I would say that the muslims did too..in a political only debate.

Even - most of the world is out of fellowship with God, let alone the Israelis or the Palestinians. If it is relevant as you seem to think it is, that the Israelis are objects of God's wrath, then why make the point in reference to Israelis as if that made any difference to the issue? If most of the world is so, then there is no point in discussing the OP. There wouldn't be any point in discussing any political question.

Agreed, the dead will bury the dead..in the long run, which is exactly my point. It is only when you make it a moral issue, and try to claim that "Israel" has some special place that this becomes a 'christian' problem, which is exactly what most christians claim. So?
Their claim is a lie.

'Where do you stand on the Tamil issue?' - Oh, nowhere because they are both the same, they are all lost. 'Whose side are you on, the democrats or the republicans?' Oh, neither because I am born again and they are both the same - all lost.

Yes, the governments of this world, were never the government of God that runs on a much higher law. Faith working love that has love and mercy and does not EVER require sacrifice, so?

It's easy to see how bad people are. It is harder - but much more rewarding - to look positively. It is easy to watch idly, never taking a stand or making a decision, comforting yourself with the thought that all these people are going to hell anyway so why should I bother to help them?

According to the word of God, we help them by telling them the truth...so that they can repent, and have a changed heart. If the salt has lost it's savor, it has become good for nothing. Telling them lies is not going to help them one bit is it? I won't be found guilty on the day of judgement telling them lies.

If you want to tell them lies, that keeps them from coming to where God wants them to be, that is your theory...and, sadly it saves no one.

The facts are that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and they rule their own people by terror let alone create terror for the Israelis. And in case you have not understood, my view has nothing to do with the Israelis being special or anything like that.

The bible says evil produces evil. It cannot produce love.

Only faith can, and until they ALL understand that, the killing will continue.

Do you want to work for God or man?

 

[Lovebug]

:dead:

 

[Desert Reign]

If you are a mature Christian, who has put the schoolmaster away, you cannot choose sides, that was my point.

I know. And you are wrong. Every action you do takes a side. If you hold an anti-abortion banner up in the street you are taking a side. Or if you intervene in a brawl to protect a weak person, you are taking a side. What you seem to be saying has the inevitable conclusion that you will take no stand on any issue of any kind.

but, you forgot that the muslims are defending themselves likewise, or would you deny that fact? The point being is that we as Christians should be thinking like Jesus Christ, who does not judge after the 'flesh'.

I did not mention Muslims at all in my post. You have invented this. It seems that in the background you are the one who is doing the judging - prejudging - here, otherwise why would you invent something like this to make a point? It's the second time you have changed the scope of the discussion in about as many posts.

If the question was merely a political one, you prove none can be considered having more a right to defend themselves, don't you?

Everyone has a right to defend themselves against undeserved attack.

It was you who claimed that Israel had a right to defend themselves. I would say that the muslims did too..in a political only debate.

See. You agree with me after all.

But let me inform you of some facts, in case you weren't aware. The Hamas charter (of 1988 I believe) calls for the destruction of Israel. It explains that truces and ceasefires are worthless and that the only good a person can do is to attack Israel and rid the land of them. I have quoted some random extracts below.

This PROVES (since you have raised the subject of proof) that Hamas are the aggressor, not Israel. Hamas is not in the business of defending itself against attack. So whilst it may be true that some Muslims somewhere are in the business of defending themselves (which, as I said, is completely irrelevant to the issue), this is certainly not true of Hamas. Hamas are the aggressor, not the defender and there is no charter or law in Israel that calls upon the destruction of Islam or of Muslims or of Palestinians. The sole reason why the nation Israel wants to keep control of the West Bank is to retain defensible borders. The last time they gave up control of territory (in Gaza of course) all that happened was that their civilians got missiles rained on them and has nothing to do with aggression towards Muslims or any of their neighbours.

(Actually there is another reason but it only relates to the specific area of Jerusalem.)

Now you can try to divert the subject away from Hamas by switching the focus to Muslims in general (which is quite prejudiced of you) but you can't deny these facts.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
​

The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Agreed, the dead will bury the dead..in the long run, which is exactly my point. It is only when you make it a moral issue, and try to claim that "Israel" has some special place that this becomes a 'christian' problem, which is exactly what most christians claim. So?
Their claim is a lie.

That depends on your interpretation of the scriptures. But that is not really the subject of the OP. However, I very much doubt that any Christian would claim that Israel as a special people is, because of that, free to do do any kind of violence to anyone they choose. I feel that you are yourself linking 'special people' with 'moral issue' and thus creating a straw man.

Yes, the governments of this world, were never the government of God that runs on a much higher law. Faith working love that has love and mercy and does not EVER require sacrifice, so?

So what? Are you saying that governments are of no importance or serve no purpose or are incapable of acting morally or being judged on moral criteria? That is what you seem to indeed be saying.

According to the word of God, we help them by telling them the truth...so that they can repent, and have a changed heart. If the salt has lost it's savor, it has become good for nothing. Telling them lies is not going to help them one bit is it? I won't be found guilty on the day of judgement telling them lies.

If you want to tell them lies, that keeps them from coming to where God wants them to be, that is your theory...and, sadly it saves no one.

I'd like to know where you got the idea from that I want to tell them lies. Perhaps another one of your inventions?

The bible says evil produces evil. It cannot produce love.

Only faith can, and until they ALL understand that, the killing will continue.

Do you want to work for God or man?

Well, that's easy. Since I have proved that Hamas is the aggressor in this case, in order to stop the killing, all you have to do is go to Gaza and preach the good news to them there. By your own logic, this is the moral and Christian thing to do. So my question to you is, are you going to do this or are you going to risk being labelled as a hypocrite?

 

[Tambora]

Right on, Desert Reign!

 

[Lovebug]

Desert Reign;3275885]I know. And you are wrong.

Your opinion.

Every action you do takes a side.

I agree.

The point being the action must be done in love, to be an action that is from God.


All actions done outside of love come from the flesh.

Their is no action allowed in taking sides, because love does not 'take sides', got it?

Love does not divide, it unites.


Jesus already united all men back into the same boat, by dying on a tree. That is love.

It is the law of moses that would seek to divide that fact...and, thast is why all who still judge by it, are not yet perfect in love....(mature christians).

If you hold an anti-abortion banner up in the street you are taking a side. Or if you intervene in a brawl to protect a weak person, you are taking a side. What you seem to be saying has the inevitable conclusion that you will take no stand on any issue of any kind.

You are not understanding me. I stand for Jesus Christ, where love and mercy are the judge.

There is no love or mercy under moses, and it was under moses that men could judge their brother, kill them, and seek to put them to death.

Do you understand that?

I did not mention Muslims at all in my post. You have invented this. It seems that in the background you are the one who is doing the judging - prejudging - here, otherwise why would you invent something like this to make a point? It's the second time you have changed the scope of the discussion in about as many posts.

I am saying what I said from the beginning, but I just don't think you fully understand it..and, then you judge me by your own lack of understanding, putting in my mouth things I do not even agree with.

Like making a judgement against abortion, for example. If a man is walking in love, they do not have to worry about it, they do not need a rule to tell them that, either..or a anti abortion sign on a streetcorner.

These things are needed for those who do not have love...which is what I said from the beginning.

Rules....are of moses.
love is of Jesus Christ and, the two shall NEVER meet.

Everyone has a right to defend themselves against undeserved attack.

Not under the law of Jesus Christ. He said 'turn the other cheek'....and, do not return their evil with evil. Do you have a clue yet? Under moses they could, yes.

Are Christians under moses or Jesus?

Today; it is hard to tell....but, I know who and what law I serve.

See. You agree with me after all.

But let me inform you of some facts, in case you weren't aware. The Hamas charter (of 1988 I believe) calls for the destruction of Israel. It explains that truces and ceasefires are worthless and that the only good a person can do is to attack Israel and rid the land of them. I have quoted some random extracts below.

This PROVES (since you have raised the subject of proof) that Hamas are the aggressor, not Israel.

It proves nothing, in the eyes of God. Who do we care about? God has said, all have fallen short of the glory of God, and all WERE equally sinful, and that is why Jesus came to make ALL equally acceptable to Him, so that ALL could believe that good news and be born again, and begin to walk in love, as it has been shown to them.

When the gospel has lost it's light unto men, it has become good for nothing.

I won't stand with that mindset. I will speak the truth to ALL men that they are ALL equally loved by God and that He does not judge them by the rule system of moses any longer. He judges righteouss judgement and He certainly expects those who are called by His name, or take up His name to speak the truth to men, not these false renditions of 'you are more evil then I, because of this rule or that rule. It is all a bunch of huie!', so, until I hear you speak some truth..on that, I will be here to disagree with you...because I am not going to trample underfoot His sacrifice that made ALL men who were equally condemned, to be equally acceptable to Him...and, NOT by rules...but, by the standard that He chooses, which is love and mercy.

..Now you can try to divert the subject away from Hamas by switching the focus to Muslims in general (which is quite prejudiced of you) but you can't deny these facts.

Your facts are based on rules, like rules has a place with God,and how He judges things? Think again.

That depends on your interpretation of the scriptures. But that is not really the subject of the OP. However, I very much doubt that any Christian would claim that Israel as a special people is, because of that, free to do do any kind of violence to anyone they choose. I feel that you are yourself linking 'special people' with 'moral issue' and thus creating a straw man.

Wrong, I am saying NO man is special by rules. You are the one inventing some rules to judge some more moral by, not me.

Read above..you already just dictated to me that Israel is more moral, because Muslims have one rule, to kill them, which makes them less moral as you define it. Again, that flies in the very face of the gospel that Jesus said, ALL WERE sinners, and NOW, all are equally reconciled, AWAY from those rules that moses was used to show NO Man justified by..or through.

Jesus is the Justifier, not a set of rules, and He justified ALL men from the curse of the law of moses by dying on a tree. That means NO man can now be judged as more or less moral by a set of rules. Do you understand ?

So what? Are you saying that governments are of no importance or serve no purpose or are incapable of acting morally or being judged on moral criteria? That is what you seem to indeed be saying.

They are incapable of being considered moral in the eyes of God's law, yes. One must have Him living in them in order to walk in love. No man can walk in love, without the Spirit of God residing in them...for crying out loud. We are not God!..in the form of flesh...that can walk in His moral law, of love.

He has said we must first receive HIM in, and then you can begin to walk in love...by putting on the mind of Christ. The carnal mind is enmity against God cannot be subject to love, and indeed cannot work it.

I'd like to know where you got the idea from that I want to tell them lies. Perhaps another one of your inventions?

If you tell them they are more moral, by your setting up your rule system for them to be more moral by, you are telling them lies, and that is exactly what you did, and you called it facts. It may be facts as judged by the flesh, but when held to the perfect law of love that Christians are supposed to be walking in, it fails, and I will state it as such. If you do not like it, do not speak the lies.

Well, that's easy. Since I have proved that Hamas is the aggressor in this case, in order to stop the killing, all you have to do is go to Gaza and preach the good news to them there. By your own logic, this is the moral and Christian thing to do. So my question to you is, are you going to do this or are you going to risk being labelled as a hypocrite?

I will tell them the gospel, yes.

I would die telling them the gospel, yes.

Would you?

In fact, I would not hide behind no man's set of rules on morality, to try to keep them from hearing the gospel.

Would you?

You already failed.

 

[Breathe]

What a long thing you just said.

 

[Lovebug]

Right on, Desert Reign!

:dead: So, you believe that Israel is less evil, because they are not the agressor, as your rules claim, when the bible says all men are equally sinners, and through the blood of Jesus all men are equally moral, through HIS righteoussness and it alone?

Figures.

A man under the law can only speak under the law.....:dead:

 

[Lovebug]

Jesus requires mercy and not sacrifice, and He requires it from BELIEVERS, but, those who are under a set of rules, as likened unto moses, can He use to work His wrath, but they are used in reaping and sowing, the church has no clue what this means.

To them mercy and no sacrifice means, you judge non believers by some rules...and, divide them into categories, of who is more or less evil.

Got news for you who hold to this, you are not under the law of
Christ, but moses..will do for you. Until your mind is renewed enough to put rules away, you are not a mature christian, and you will be judged by whatever rule you judge others by...so for you I fear.

 

[Desert Reign]

Right on, Desert Reign!

Thanks. I did edit my post afterwards.

 

[tetelestai]

This PROVES (since you have raised the subject of proof) that Hamas are the aggressor, not Israel.

Who was the aggressor in 1948 when the Palestinians were kicked out of their land by the Israelis?

 

[Desert Reign]

:dead: So, you believe that Israel is less evil, because they are not the agressor, as your rules claim, when the bible says all men are equally sinners, and through the blood of Jesus all men are equally moral, through HIS righteoussness and it alone?

Figures.

A man under the law can only speak under the law.....:dead:

Look, mate, I never said anything about Hamas being evil or Israel being good or vice versa. You're inventing again. I never equated sinfulness with either Hamas' actions or Israel's. I think my first impression was correct. You have got a chip on your shoulder about this. You've got an agenda and whatever I say, you are going to turn it round to that agenda and ignore everything else.

 

[Desert Reign]

All actions done outside of love come from the flesh.

That's a bit of a broad sweep, don't you think? I mean if for instance I do something out of honour, self-protection, mercy or faithfulness, then they are not of God?

God has said, all have fallen short of the glory of God, and all WERE equally sinful, and that is why Jesus came to make ALL equally acceptable to Him, so that ALL could believe that good news and be born again, and begin to walk in love, as it has been shown to them.

It seems here that you are saying that unless we are a Christian we cannot love at all. I completely disagree with this and I don't think you will find that many who agree with you. Jesus commands his followers to walk in love because walking in love is a good thing to do and he wants all his followers to be doing good things. Neither he nor any apostle said that unless you become a Christian you cannot love. You've got this the wrong way round.

The rest of your post, I agree with Breathe, which is why I'm not responding to it. Apart from, yes, I would go and die if God called me to do it. But my point is that your ideology obliges you to go, mine doesn't.

 

[Desert Reign]

Who was the aggressor in 1948 when the Palestinians were kicked out of their land by the Israelis?

Thank you Tet for asking a relevant question to the discussion, it is refreshing.

I am sure that there were some instances where Israelis evicted Palestinians from their land in 1948, however, in a general summary of the situation, what happened was that the Arab armies' leaders told the Palestinian residents in advance to get out of the way for what was supposedly going to be just a few days or weeks at most while they got on with the job of evicting all the Israelis. The residents were told that they could come back and have even more space than before. There was never any doubt in the minds of the Arab invaders that they would succeed and on paper at least it was a foregone conclusion: the borders of Israel at that time were almost completely indefensible. Consequently, the resident Palestinians left to places like Gaza and the West Bank (which was then part of Jordan) and Lebanon. The Israelis had no choice but to expand their borders from the original 48 lines to avoid the ever present threat of anihilation, to a position which was geographically more defensible. Had the Arab armies not attacked them but left them in peace, their borders would have been the same to this day.

 

[Huckleberry]

Who was the aggressor in 1948...

Hamas was founded in 1987.

 

[drbrumley]

Hamas was founded in 1987.

By the Israeli's wouldn't you know....

 

[drbrumley]

Thank you Tet for asking a relevant question to the discussion, it is refreshing.

I am sure that there were some instances where Israelis evicted Palestinians from their land in 1948, however, in a general summary of the situation, what happened was that the Arab armies' leaders told the Palestinian residents in advance to get out of the way for what was supposedly going to be just a few days or weeks at most while they got on with the job of evicting all the Israelis. The residents were told that they could come back and have even more space than before. There was never any doubt in the minds of the Arab invaders that they would succeed and on paper at least it was a foregone conclusion: the borders of Israel at that time were almost completely indefensible. Consequently, the resident Palestinians left to places like Gaza and the West Bank (which was then part of Jordan) and Lebanon. The Israelis had no choice but to expand their borders from the original 48 lines to avoid the ever present threat of anihilation, to a position which was geographically more defensible. Had the Arab armies not attacked them but left them in peace, their borders would have been the same to this day.

Um, there is more to that than your letting on.

 

[Desert Reign]

Um, there is more to that than your letting on.

That's certainly helpful.

 

[drbrumley]

That's certainly helpful.

Well, your the one explaining the situation.

 

[Desert Reign]

Look:

How could anyone defend this against attack?