toldailytopic: The best form of government is...

[Granite]

Let's ask our friend, Ben, shall we?



And another...



And finally...



The reason I am conservative is not because I believe that liberal-minded folks are deceitful and against change. It is precisely because they are true to their principles that I can never, in good conscience, be one. In my opinion, the Left does an excellent job of destroying everything that I value in this great nation. And they do it all with the very best of intentions.

Both sides, it seems to me, desire the same thing. They desire for each of us to be able to live the way we want to live. The Left, however, chooses to do this by controlling everything so that we are guaranteed our freedoms. In other words, it is a forced liberty. Liberals often erroneously believe that being liberal makes them better people. They believe it makes them more tolerable. They believe that they can change human nature by controlling it.

If I want to eat french fries, buy my children a kid's meal with a toy inside, enjoy a red velvet cake, buy Nyquil without a prescription (from illegal...er, um, undocumented I mean...homosexual doctors practicing medicine in green-certified offices located on Hopi Indian reservations) never exercise a day in my life, and smoke 20 packs of cigarettes a day, that is my choice. Do I find wisdom in refraining from the aforementioned activities? Of course. Do I believe that it is my government's place to tell me how to live? I do not.

And I cannot stomach when a great many liberals with whom I have held conversations tell me that, if I don't support such and such, I must hate___________ (fill in the discriminated against group of your choice here).

"You don't believe in granting women their right to do with their body as they see fit and allowing them to murder unborn babies?? You are a terrible person! How can you hate women so much? Not to mention that you must love to see poor people suffer!"

or

Try telling some liberals that you believe in upholding laws and requiring immigrants to come through the front door in a legal fashion for citizenship and you will inevitably hear something along the lines of "What?! You hate Mexicans??"

That's right. Conservatives hate everyone except rich people.

:vomit:

Not all Lefty types are this way, of course, and for me to say they all fit into such a nice stereotype would be disingenuous. :e4e:

Government is a necessary good, in my opinion. And there is none better than the one created by the Founders of the United States. For all its faults, it has stood the test of time and will continue to prove its mettle.


And now that I've shared the facts, I shall go on to my opinion... :chuckle:

Assuming there are only two kinds of people that can be neatly divided into a pair of easily-pigeonholed understood camps might be easy, but it's also incredibly misleading and inaccurate.

I am sick. To. Death of this "liberal versus conservative" nonsense. It's a fantasy, a lie, a distraction, and a farce.

 

[vegascowboy]

Assuming there are only two kinds of people that can be neatly divided into a pair of easily-pigeonholed understood camps might be easy, but it's also incredibly misleading and inaccurate.

I am sick. To. Death of this "liberal versus conservative" nonsense. It's a fantasy, a lie, a distraction, and a farce.

How did I know you would be the first to respond?

Hmmm...methinks you missed the parts above where I said that this wasn't true of all liberals and that it was my opinion. Like this one, for example:

Not all Lefty types are this way, of course, and for me to say they all fit into such a nice stereotype would be disingenuous.

Or where I said "some liberals" or "many liberals." I don't ever recall saying ALL liberals. :sigh:

 

[Granite]

How did I know you would be the first to respond?

Hmmm...methinks you missed the parts above where I said that this wasn't true of all liberals and that it was my opinion. Like this one, for example: :sigh:

If these broad brush assumptions and stereotypes aren't true, why on earth do you and others keep on repeating them?

 

[vegascowboy]

If these broad brush assumptions and stereotypes aren't true, why on earth do you and others keep on repeating them?

I listed specific instances that I have personally experienced, and then I followed them up with saying that they are not true of all.

Seems like I was doing my best to state my opinion of what makes the best form of government, like the OP asked. :idunno:

 

[Granite]

I listed specific instances that I have personally experienced, and then I followed them up with saying that they are not true of all.

Seems like I was doing my best to state my opinion of what makes the best form of government, like the OP asked. :idunno:

Vegas, all due respect, the majority of your post consisted of trashing what you happen not to like from a small group of Americans, not explaining in any detail your views on the ideal form of government in the U.S. This is the exact kind of negative, destructive discourse we should be trying to avoid. Calling people who have the temerity to disagree with you politically "deceitful" is, to put it mildly, arrogant in the extreme.

 

[vegascowboy]

Vegas, all due respect, the majority of your post consisted of trashing what you happen not to like from a small group of Americans, not explaining in any detail your views on the ideal form of government in the U.S. This is the exact kind of negative, destructive discourse we should be trying to avoid. Calling people who have the temerity to disagree with you politically "deceitful" is, to put it mildly, arrogant in the extreme.

Are we not all arrogant in our opinions? I can only speak from experience. When I begin using terms such as ALL and HATE and DAMNATION, then your reprimand will carry water. Until then, I stand by what I said. It is entirely my fault if I worded my post in a way that reflected something other than my intent.

I respect you, Granite, but I do not see folly in the discussion of one's own experiences.

 

[Granite]

Ideally? Ideally we’d have a small non-intrusive representative government made up of public servants who didn’t seek acclaim or even public office in the first place. They’d be pressed into service, toil quietly, and step down with little ado.

Currency would be backed by gold and silver, and the treasury would be defined by transparency.

We’d stop our military adventures and stop invading who we didn’t like, would stop bullying, would stop the empire. We would, in other words, stop terrorizing the world.

But none of that’s terribly realistic.

 

[Granite]

Are we not all arrogant in our opinions? I can only speak from experience. When I begin using terms such as ALL and HATE and DAMNATION, then your reprimand will carry water. Until then, I stand by what I said. It is entirely my fault if I worded my meaning in a way that reflected something other than my intent.

I respect you, Granite, but I do not see folly in the discussion of one's own experiences.

And your experience is that most people who have the audacity to disagree with your politics are all out to get you and are lying to you. Here I thought I was cynical.:chuckle:

 

[vegascowboy]

And your experience is that most people who have the audacity to disagree with your politics are all out to get you and are lying to you.

Quite the contrary! I do not believe there was deceit in anything those folks (those disagreeing with me) said to me. Therein lies my fear.

Here I thought I was cynical.

We both have booked passage aboard the Cynical Express.

 

[Granite]

We both have booked passage aboard the Cynical Express.

That may be, but you're blaming the wrong people.

 

[vegascowboy]

That may be, but you're blaming the wrong people.

Now we are getting somewhere.

According to you, good sir, to whom should I be assigning blame for the personal beliefs expressed to me by those I mentioned above?

 

[Granite]

Now we are getting somewhere.

According to you, good sir, to whom should I be assigning blame for the personal beliefs expressed to me by those I mentioned above?

The people who've trashed our country, sold us out to foreign powers, and seem intent on milking us dry before reducing us to also-ran second rate status don't respect nationality, race, creed, or political background. Their loyalty is to themselves and their own little clique. Quit buying into the bumper sticker style philosophy (you're better than that) and don't settle for this blame game nonsense.

Two poor, working class (or even middle class) schmucks who've just lost their jobs, health care, and home--or possibly all three--might prefer different politicians and approach the voting booth with a very different worldview, but at the end of the day, those two disenfranchised schmucks have far more in common than the empty suits who soothe them with lies and feed them rhetoric. But we're not told to look at the corporate masters who buy politicians, or the bankers who really run things, and we're never encouraged to criticize the actual powers that be. We're told to blame our neighbors and co-workers for pulling the wrong lever some cold, overcast day in November when everyone else who was shuffling through that booth had the same sinking feeling: that they were being had.

 

[vegascowboy]

The people who've trashed our country, sold us out to foreign powers, and seem intent on milking us dry before reducing us to also-ran second rate status don't respect nationality, race, creed, or political background.

Agreed. And you believe these people are whom?

Their loyalty is to themselves and their own little clique. Quit buying into the bumper sticker style philosophy (you're better than that) and don't settle for this blame game nonsense.

What is your suggestion? I agree that stereotyping can be a dangerous pursuit, but I also believe that it has utility for getting at the essence of a belief system imparted by the opposite understanding. If that idea of a belief is then misjudged, it opens the door for debate and correction. It is useful for a majority of one group to endeavor to understand the sentimentalities of the other. How, then, can such sentimentalities come to light other than by the expression of such according to any given person's experience.

An observation, if grounded in accuracy and sincerity and reported in such a fashion, becomes an empirical generalization until and if someone objects to it, at which point it becomes a stereotype. Is this always a bad thing? Empirical generalizations of any group of people are neither good nor bad. In and of themselves, they boast no placement of value. They simply are. Stereotypes are not behavioral prescriptions telling us how to to treat other people. It is what we choose to do with those stereotypes that dictate our understanding, conclusion, and, ultimately, action.

Our interpretation of those stereotypes, when viewed through rose colored glass of personal bias and coupled with opinion is a way for us to open a dialogue that will either support or dismiss that particular stereotype. I cannot speak to everyone of a particular group of people in most cases, but I can begin to paint a picture of the beliefs of those with whom I speak that represents their cause based upon the way they answer my questions.

If Ferdinand the Catholic tells me that all Catholics hate buttermilk, I may be inclined to dismiss it as personal opinion. When Sue, and Johnny, and Frieda, and Gerald, and Sammy tell me the same thing, I may begin to believe what they are saying as a more largely held belief. Does the fact that many told me the same thing make it so? No, sir. Who am I to disagree with what they have said? On the surface, it would seem that they represent the group to which they belong. To discredit what they have said and what they indicate as their belief would be to ignore the bigger picture and deny their beliefs. At the very least, it opens the door to deeper discussion.



(Frankly, I have no idea what I just said. My brain is a muddled place.)

 

[Granite]

Agreed. And you believe these people are whom?

I thought I said so. Again: the super rich, the elite, the bankers, the insiders. The people who actually run things...

What is your suggestion?

Keep your head on straight, draw no unnecessary attention, and enjoy your life.

I agree that stereotyping can be a dangerous pursuit, but I also believe that it has utility for getting at the essence of a belief system imparted by the opposite understanding. If that idea of a belief is then misjudged, it opens the door for debate and correction. It is useful for a majority of one group to endeavor to understand the sentimentalities of the other. How, then, can such sentimentalities come to light other than by the expression of such according to any given person's experience.

While this may well be the case I'd still say you are angry and fed up with the wrong people. The low easy targets on the totem pole, as it were. I rarely see true, justified anger aimed at the powers that be. Maybe lately with some anti-Federal Reserve talk, but even that's fairly muted.

We're baited, regularly, into playing the blame game, and in the process, we low commoners are set against one another and encouraged to tear each other apart. Works like a charm most of the time.

In and of themselves, they boast no placement of value. They simply are. Stereotypes are not behavioral prescriptions telling us how to to treat other people. It is what we choose to do with those stereotypes that dictate our understanding, conclusion, and, ultimately, action.

I'd disagree: if for example you promote the stereotype that blacks are thieves, murderers, and lazy, how would that not inform your treatment of them? In any event I think we're getting a long ways towards staying on topic...

If Ferdinand the Catholic tells me that all Catholics hate buttermilk, I may be inclined to dismiss it as personal opinion. When Sue, and Johnny, and Frieda, and Gerald, and Sammy tell me the same thing, I may begin to believe what they are saying as a more largely held belief. Does the fact that many told me the same thing make it so? No, sir. Who am I to disagree with what they have said? On the surface, it would seem that they represent the group to which they belong. To discredit what they have said and what they indicate as their belief would be to ignore the bigger picture and deny their beliefs. At the very least, it opens the door to deeper discussion.

This may well be true (it rings true, anyway) but I don't think it has much to do with what I said.

 

[drbrumley]

Keep your head on straight, draw no unnecessary attention, and enjoy your life.

And that is the easy way out.

 

[Granite]

And that is the easy way out.

What other choice is there?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

What other choice is there?

"Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils."

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2009&month=04

 

[vegascowboy]

What other choice is there?

I have a question for you, Mr. Granite, sir...

When you choose the political designation that you do here on TOL..."More Right Than Left"...what makes you do so?

What is it about the Right over the Left that would create within you the desire to identify yourself as such?

 

[Granite]

I have a question for you, Mr. Granite, sir...

When you choose the political designation that you do here on TOL..."More Right Than Left"...what makes you do so?

What is it about the Right over the Left that would create within you the desire to identify yourself as such?

Personally I don't care for the classifications but oh well. I'm a gun owner, support gun rights, favor a more Jeffersonian ideal of government, and oppose abortion. If you had to pigeonhole me in one category "libertarian" comes closest. I have no desire to identify as such, because my politics don't really constitute who or what I am, Vegas. It's a classification asked of me on a bulletin board, nothing more.

 

[vegascowboy]

Personally I don't care for the classifications but oh well. I'm a gun owner, support gun rights, favor a more Jeffersonian ideal of government, and oppose abortion. If you had to pigeonhole me in one category "libertarian" comes closest. I have no desire to identify as such, because my politics don't really constitute who or what I am, Vegas. It's a classification asked of me on a bulletin board, nothing more.

I am writing you a personal message. Please stay tuned.