toldailytopic: Spiritual Gifts. Do they still exist today?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Since when is the Holy Spirit a substitute for common sense? :chuckle:

Indeed!

J. Packer's book, Finding God's Will, is a short read full of useful guidance.

I think it begins by fully integrating God's will into every aspect of our lives. This comes from a thorough understanding of the Scriptures, so we can obey what God has already commanded us to do and how to live (praxis), see Proverbs 6:22. This walk of sanctification increases our God-given common sense, too, so that we should not be calling upon the Lord for every little decision in our lives. Studying the Scriptures helps us to know what God thinks about a myriad of topics, so we should have the answers to many important questions in front of us. This way God's will is often so clear that only obedience, and not guidance is necessary.

We also have to be willing to do what God says to do. Sometimes a person already has an answer in mind and is unwilling to accept any other when seeking God's guidance. And guide us He will: Psalms 25:12, 32:8, Proverbs 3:6, Isaiah 58:11, Colossians 1:9.

It should go without saying that we must very specifically ask, with a readiness to obey, for guidance when we need it (James 1:58). Accompany this with trusting God in the matter (Phil. 4:6,7), keeping a watch out for guidance in your daily devotionals, and seeking the counsel of the brothers and sisters in Christ (Proverbs 11:14).

The tricky part, if you will, is discerning the answer. We have to understand that Guide is guiding us in our decision making processes, that what we are discovering as we work out things is not mere accident. I think Acts 17:16 offers an answer:

"Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols."

I become very worried when people start saying, "the Lord spoke to me today" or "I don't do anything unless the Lord tells me to do it", etc., as if God is actually directly speaking to someone (Murray speaks to this directly). God does not provide special revelation outside of his Word now that the foundation of our faith is laid in it by the prophets and apostles in His Word. Furthermore, God has told us not to seek "signs and wonders."

Rather than seeking the Lord to give us direct revelation, we should be content with God’s provision in His word (our only infallible rule of practice and faith) to guide us as to what is his will for our lives, what He commands us and expects of us concerning Him, and to know how great the love of Christ is to us.

Murray writes in The Guidance of the Holy Spirit:

“The moment we desire or expect or think that a state of our consciousness is the effect of a direct intimation of us of the Holy Spirit’s will, or consists in such an intimation and is therefore in the category of special direction from him, then we have given way to the notion of special, direct, detached communication from the Holy Spirit. And this, in respect of its nature, belongs to the same category as belief in special revelation”​

Some will claim they had a vision about God's will or a burden about this or that, when what they really mean is that they had some "impression". If that impression is Scripturally sound, I think it proper to say the impression was a nudge by the Holy Spirit, just as Paul was "provoked within him" (Acts 17:16). Not a few persons expect some "road to Damascus" like answer from God, failing to note that Paul was not even looking for guidance from God on that fateful road!

We should also realize that not every non-moral decision facing us has a single right answer. Leveraging the factors described above, we must decide and trust that God will accomplish His will. "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).

AMR

 

[Evoken]

Well as far as the gift of tongues goes, I believe it was given for a time but has passed and I do not believe the Charismatic movement to be genuine.


Evo

 

[godrulz]

Like God being 3 hypostasis and Jesus being homoousian with the Father?

The biblical triune understanding is rooted in the first century and Scripture. Philosophical clarifications and formalized details in response to heretical attacks came later.

 

[godrulz]

Well as far as the gift of tongues goes, I believe it was given for a time but has passed and I do not believe the Charismatic movement to be genuine.


Evo

Why would something that Paul emphasized as good for the Church cease in the beginning instead of at the end of the Church Age?

There is no exegetical, biblical, theological, logical, anecdotatal basis for cessationism.

Your beliefs are noted, but they are wrong (not everything in the Catholic charismatic movement is legit, but I thought popes have blessed it in general; do you disagree with your 'infallible' mother ship?).

 

[chrysostom]

do you disagree with your 'infallible' mother ship?).

I do find this very disagreeable

 

[Evoken]

There is no exegetical, biblical, theological, logical, anecdotatal basis for cessationism.

Never said I was a Cessationist

...not everything in the Catholic charismatic movement is legit, but I thought popes have blessed it in general; do you disagree with your 'infallible' mother ship?

Not everything a Pope does or says is infallible or binding upon Catholics. The Pope has given it his blessing, with warnings and has expressed his personal opinion about it. No official pronouncement about it and one is not bound to see it as genuine anymore than one is bound to accept private revelations.


Evo

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There is no exegetical, biblical, theological, logical, anecdotatal basis for cessationism.

Post it 10,000 more times and maybe it will magically become true.

 

[Krsto]

The biblical triune understanding is rooted in the first century and Scripture. Philosophical clarifications and formalized details in response to heretical attacks came later.

How would you know? By your own admission you haven't studied the creeds and how they were formulated.

I'll bet you can't find one single 1st Cent. writer or writer from the 1st half of the 2nd Cent. that I can't agree with regarding the godhead. Go ahead. Try me.

FYI - Arianism was the predominant belief in the Christian church both before the Council of Nicea and shortly thereafter. Not that I'm Arian though I agree with much of what they said as it's taught in scripture.

 

[Krsto]

Indeed!

J. Packer's book, Finding God's Will, is a short read full of useful guidance.

I think it begins by fully integrating God's will into every aspect of our lives. This comes from a thorough understanding of the Scriptures, so we can obey what God has already commanded us to do and how to live (praxis), see Proverbs 6:22. This walk of sanctification increases our God-given common sense, too, so that we should not be calling upon the Lord for every little decision in our lives. Studying the Scriptures helps us to know what God thinks about a myriad of topics, so we should have the answers to many important questions in front of us. This way God's will is often so clear that only obedience, and not guidance is necessary.

We also have to be willing to do what God says to do. Sometimes a person already has an answer in mind and is unwilling to accept any other when seeking God's guidance. And guide us He will: Psalms 25:12, 32:8, Proverbs 3:6, Isaiah 58:11, Colossians 1:9.

It should go without saying that we must very specifically ask, with a readiness to obey, for guidance when we need it (James 1:58). Accompany this with trusting God in the matter (Phil. 4:6,7), keeping a watch out for guidance in your daily devotionals, and seeking the counsel of the brothers and sisters in Christ (Proverbs 11:14).

The tricky part, if you will, is discerning the answer. We have to understand that Guide is guiding us in our decision making processes, that what we are discovering as we work out things is not mere accident. I think Acts 17:16 offers an answer:

"Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols."

I become very worried when people start saying, "the Lord spoke to me today" or "I don't do anything unless the Lord tells me to do it", etc., as if God is actually directly speaking to someone (Murray speaks to this directly). God does not provide special revelation outside of his Word now that the foundation of our faith is laid in it by the prophets and apostles in His Word. Furthermore, God has told us not to seek "signs and wonders."

Rather than seeking the Lord to give us direct revelation, we should be content with God’s provision in His word (our only infallible rule of practice and faith) to guide us as to what is his will for our lives, what He commands us and expects of us concerning Him, and to know how great the love of Christ is to us.

Murray writes in The Guidance of the Holy Spirit:

“The moment we desire or expect or think that a state of our consciousness is the effect of a direct intimation of us of the Holy Spirit’s will, or consists in such an intimation and is therefore in the category of special direction from him, then we have given way to the notion of special, direct, detached communication from the Holy Spirit. And this, in respect of its nature, belongs to the same category as belief in special revelation”​

Some will claim they had a vision about God's will or a burden about this or that, when what they really mean is that they had some "impression". If that impression is Scripturally sound, I think it proper to say the impression was a nudge by the Holy Spirit, just as Paul was "provoked within him" (Acts 17:16). Not a few persons expect some "road to Damascus" like answer from God, failing to note that Paul was not even looking for guidance from God on that fateful road!

We should also realize that not every non-moral decision facing us has a single right answer. Leveraging the factors described above, we must decide and trust that God will accomplish His will. "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).

AMR

So you DO believe in special revelation. Good to hear.

Most of your post is very good advice that most any non-cessationist, even the most ardent charismatic, would agree to and lives by it and the guy who doesn't do anything unless God tells him to would in every charismatic's estimation be a wack job. None of it really precludes special revelation or God using the gifts in our time.

The question I like to pose is if special revelation and manifestations of the spirit such as prophecy, gifts of healing, and visions were normative in bible times and not living "in the supernatural" would have been considered abnormal, why would anyone want it to be any different today unless God has CLEARLY revealed walking in the supernatural is not to be the norm today? Why is a prophecy or a healing or a vision or a tongue considered "sensationalism" by Nang when it is normative Christian experience judging by biblical standards? It should be what we would expect as Sons of God, not considered an abnormality.

You cessationists seem to put an awful lot of stock in the "perfect to come" being the completed canon. I've always thought you Reformed folks were better theologians than that, after all, you haven't bought into all the end times nonsense from the Hal Lindsay followers.

 

[Krsto]

Post it 10,000 more times and maybe it will magically become true.

He doesn't need to say much else since no one on this thread has provided an "exegetical, biblical, theological, logical, anecdotatal basis for cessationism."

The burden of proof is on you my friend.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

He doesn't need to say much else since no one on this thread has provided an "exegetical, biblical, theological, logical, anecdotatal basis for cessationism."

The burden of proof is on you my friend.

The gifts cease, it's just a question of when.
Therefore, "cessationism" is true.

You can fight about when.

 

[Krsto]

The gifts cease, it's just a question of when.
Therefore, "cessationism" is true.

You can fight about when.

OK, still looking for a scripture saying they cease this side of the afterlife . . .

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

OK, still looking for a scripture saying they cease this side of the afterlife . . .

Where's the scripture saying they will cease on the "other side of the afterlife"?

You have to ask yourself what did Paul know in part, and what did he prophesy in part. If you get that right, then that which is perfect isn't difficult to figure out.

And, who's face was he referring to when he said "then face to face"?

 

[godrulz]

Post it 10,000 more times and maybe it will magically become true.

What I call self-evident, biblical truth, you call 'cliche', but offer no cogent argument against my view (just neg reps with the word 'cliche'). I Cor. 12-14 is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts, not their supposed cessation. The one verse in I Cor. 13 relates to the end of the Church Age (I Jn. 3:2), not the beginning.

My experience (and hundreds of millions of others) is consistent with the Word. Your view is a vapid attempt to retain a hyper-disp assumption not demanded by theology, logic, text. Change your view and practice, not the Bible.

 

[godrulz]

How would you know? By your own admission you haven't studied the creeds and how they were formulated.

I'll bet you can't find one single 1st Cent. writer or writer from the 1st half of the 2nd Cent. that I can't agree with regarding the godhead. Go ahead. Try me.

FYI - Arianism was the predominant belief in the Christian church both before the Council of Nicea and shortly thereafter. Not that I'm Arian though I agree with much of what they said as it's taught in scripture.

I have studied history of dogma and church history at the College level years ago, but I am not an expert.

You are essentially Arian, a later heresy that was soundly condemned by the Church centuries after the biblically rooted trinitarian view was predominant.

This is all secondary to the biblical evidence, the only authoritative source (Fathers contradict each other and were wrong at times).

 

[godrulz]

The gifts cease, it's just a question of when.
Therefore, "cessationism" is true.

You can fight about when.

Eph. 4 links it to maturity. Has every local church and believer been matured/perfected in the last 2000 years? If this 5-fold ministry gifting to the church is part of the puzzle, why only retain 3/5 of them (this is what I mean by no exegetical basis....based on grammar, if you reject 2, you should reject 5 to be consistent; likewise, the other gift lists in Romans and I Cor. are selectively embraced and discarded arbitrarily with no grammatical or theological cues from the text).

I Cor. 13 points to a future time when we see Him at the end of the Church Age (I Jn. 3:2). We would expect Acts to be an open-ended blueprint/pattern/precedent for the Church Age, but you have things birthed in power and then quickly fading into the arm of the flesh.

Ultradisp and cess. views put God in a box and limit Him in a way that Scripture does not. Your view is wrong (conclusion), because your assumptions are flawed (closing of canon; shift to Paul, etc.).

Paul simply does not share your view, nor does the Spirit judging by what is going on today that you seem to know nothing about.

God is supernatural, but you seem to think He has shifted to natural means and methods and that the principles of the Word are for a very limited people and time instead of the foundation for the Church Age.

The burden of proof is on you, but all you have is 'feelings':singer:

 

[ThePresbyteers]

This message is deleted and closed.

 

[Krsto]

Where's the scripture saying they will cease on the "other side of the afterlife"?

You have to ask yourself what did Paul know in part, and what did he prophesy in part. If you get that right, then that which is perfect isn't difficult to figure out.

And, who's face was he referring to when he said "then face to face"?

It's the same one you use to say they will cease when they established the canon. The point of 1 Cor. 13 is that love is something that will endure forever because we will be with God forever and God is love. Paul knew EVERYTHING in part and prophesied in part because he was a human being limited by his human nature but he won't have those limitations in the afterlife when he has come face to face with God in Christ.

Summary of 1 Cor. 13: love endures forever, gifts of the spirit don't and aren't needed in the afterlife. Don't get so enamored with that which is temporal while not excercising that which is eternal and central to the Christian faith. Make sure you get the love thing down before you try and get "spiritual." It's a back to basics message. Once you see that you will be able to properly identify the "perfect."

But your exegesis being what it is, are you really going to deny the gifts of the spirit based on such a nebulous "proof text"? Like I said before, I took you Reformed folks to be better theologians than that.

 

[Krsto]

I have studied history of dogma and church history at the College level years ago, but I am not an expert.

You are essentially Arian, a later heresy that was soundly condemned by the Church centuries after the biblically rooted trinitarian view was predominant.
This is all secondary to the biblical evidence, the only authoritative source (Fathers contradict each other and were wrong at times).

This is wishful thinking on the part of one who has not studied this topic enough to be so dogmatic about it. Funny thing is the anti-Arians could not come up with a statement the Arians would not sign on to if they just used scripture. They had to invent non-biblical terms like homoousian to make a distinction they could not agree to. So much for the bible being the only authoritative source for church doctrine. Also, it was Constantine who was calling the shots at Nicea and was the one to make the final determination as to what was "orthodox," and he vascilated on that determination several times as he was swayed by men eager for political victories.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

This message is deleted and closed.