toldailytopic: Should being diagnosed insane excuse capital punishment?

[aCultureWarrior]

This is the best post I've seen thus far, so I'll address it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
Yet... you believe that they should be locked up in a small cell for the rest of their life? If they don't deserve capital punishment why would they deserve being locked up in a small cell for the rest of their life?

The purpose is not punishment. Death penalty in itself accomplishes nothing, it is a form of justice that is not needed in a developed society that has secure prisons. The purpose is protecting society.

The death penalty is a form of punishment. Our laws in the US were based on Scripture, and death was given to those that purposely took the life of another. (In order to have justice prevail, the punishment MUST fit the crime).

And being cooped up in a small cell is a form of punishment; if it weren't then prisons would all be 1,000 acres of razor-wired fence where prisoners could smell the daisy's and pet lambs all day.

The question is whether Breivik is insane. I'm not convinced that a man that has planned his actions for 9 years can be held unaccountable. As another psychiatrist has pointed out, the diagnosis paranoid schizophrenic seems weird since the patient lacks the cardinal symptom of the illness, namely hallucinations.

This is the main issue here, is the murderer truly insane? A group of shrinks meeting with a mass murderer for several hours a day for a week or two AFTER the crime has been committed isn't a very good indication of his mindset when he committed the crime.

As you pointed out, you have to take into account his actions prior to the incident, especially if premeditation was a factor in the crime, and what his lifestyle was like prior to the criminal act.

 

[ghost]

This is the main issue here, is the murderer truly insane? A group of shrinks meeting with a mass murderer for several hours a day for a week or two AFTER the crime has been committed isn't a very good indication of his mindset when he committed the crime.

Why do Christians suddenly abandon the Bible when they consider this topic. It absolutely boggles the mind.

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?"

 

[Rusha]

See above.

No, I can't. The guarantee of death isn't justice in this case, Rusha,

There is no justice or action that can ever undo the damage done, Granite. However, there is damage control. A dead murderer will never murderer again.

it's just the sickest kind of insurance I can imagine. I would hope if they show signs of improvement that they may one day be cured, or healed of their affliction. If not, they deserve to remain institutionalized.

IF they are truly that sick, then I wonder how being stuck with a bunch of individuals 24/7 will improve his quality of life.

There most certainly is, and you should know better.

I have yet to read it. However, I will concede that when such a day comes that convicted murderers will never escape, be released, murder or harm another human being (including prison personnel) that time I might be willing to reconsider my position.

In that case you're being hard-hearted. Whatever.

Not completely ... only on one side of my heart. The other side is reserved for the victims who lived through the terror and pain while their life was stolen from them and all of their surviving loved ones who will mourn them until they, themselves, take their last breath.

 

[Silent Hunter]

. . . aCW . . . ever the blithering idiot . . .

This is the best post I've seen thus far, so I'll address it.

You obviously don't get out much.

The death penalty is a form of punishment.

Well, not really, but that is a topic for a different thread I think.

Our laws in the US were based on Scripture, and death was given to those that purposely took the life of another.

:nono:

You can keep telling yourself that but it won't make it true.

(In order to have justice prevail, the punishment MUST fit the crime).

Certainly.

And being cooped up in a small cell is a form of punishment; if it weren't then prisons would all be 1,000 acres of razor-wired fence where prisoners could smell the daisy's and pet lambs all day.

You mean prisons shouldn't be pleasant homes-away-from-home?

I'm :shocked:.

This is the main issue here, is the murderer truly insane? A group of shrinks meeting with a mass murderer for several hours a day for a week or two AFTER the crime has been committed isn't a very good indication of his mindset when he committed the crime.

Of course you, NOT having a degree in psychology, are qualified to make this pronouncement.

As you pointed out, you have to take into account his actions prior to the incident, especially if premeditation was a factor in the crime, and what his lifestyle was like prior to the criminal act.

:liberals:

Well, that makes no sense given what you said earlier and given ghost's comment above.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Why do Christians suddenly abandon the Bible when they consider this topic. It absolutely boggles the mind.

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?"

Because Christianity teaches compassion towards the weak.

If someone who is truly insane (i.e. doesn't know right from wrong, as the evidence would show based on his previous actions to committing the crime) commits a crime against society such as murder, why would you punish him as you would someone that has his full mental faculties?

 

[Granite]

There is no justice or action that can ever undo the damage done, Granite. However, there is damage control. A dead murderer will never murderer again.

So this really just boils down to retribution, or, as you put it, damage control. We're beyond justice, at this rate. Sorry, but I can't truck with that kind of authoritarian mentality. "No man, no problem" wasn't spoken by a humanitarian.

IF they are truly that sick, then I wonder how being stuck with a bunch of individuals 24/7 will improve his quality of life.

...because psychiatry, meds, therapy, and study have never helped anyone.

I have yet to read it. However, I will concede that when such a day comes that convicted murderers will never escape, be released, murder or harm another human being (including prison personnel) that time I might be willing to reconsider my position.

You need to differentiate between the criminally insane and the criminal. What kind of society condones the execution of a person who can't understand what's going to happen to him, let alone what he did?

Not completely ... only on one side of my heart. The other side is reserved for the victims who lived through the terror and pain while their life was stolen from them and all of their surviving loved ones who will mourn them until they, themselves, take their last breath.

How do we possibly help a tragic situation by victimizing someone who is by definition incredibly ill?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

You obviously don't get out much.

Actually I do get out on occasion.

While I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything, I do know this:

It wasn't following Christian doctrine that put those criminals in prison, it was following the doctrine of "nothingness" that put them there.

How's it feel to share the same religion with someone who rapes, murders and steals Silent Hunter?

 

[ghost]

Because Christianity teaches compassion towards the weak.

We are all "weak". If we think otherwise, we have an unsound mind.

If someone who is truly insane (i.e. doesn't know right from wrong, as the evidence would show based on his previous actions to committing the crime)

I would not agree with your definition of someone who is "insane". A person who does not know right from wrong is rarely, if ever, involved in a murder. I'm not sure that would be possible. If a person who mumbles, drools, and talks to himself, were to push someone down a flight of stairs intentionally they would still know what they did and know why they did it. If it was an accident, then it's not murder.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

We are all "weak". If we think otherwise, we have an unsound mind.

I would not agree with your definition of someone who is "insane". A person who does not know right from wrong is rarely, if ever, involved in a murder. I'm not sure that would be possible. If a person who mumbles, drools, and talks to himself, were to push someone down a flight of stairs intentionally they would still know what they did and know why they did it. If it was an accident, then it's not murder.

Actually our laws do protect those that aren't expected to know right from wrong from certain kinds of punishment (such as the death penalty), and on occasion those people do commit horrendous acts.

They're called "children".

 

[ghost]

Actually our laws do protect those that aren't expected to know right from wrong from certain kinds of punishment (such as the death penalty), and on occasion those people do commit horrendous acts.

They're called "children".

I have 8 children, and they all know right from wrong.

Are you saying that as long as no one has been told what is wrong they are not to be held accountable?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I have 8 children, and they all know right from wrong.

Are you saying that as long as no one has been told what is wrong they are not to be held accountable?

There is a certain age where children can't be expected to know right from wrong based on their comprehension level.

In other words ghost: When you hear a shrink testify in court that the defendant has the mentality of a 4 year old, they mean it literally.

Now there are issues to discuss here. Was the defendant born with limited mental faculities, or did he burn his brain out from heavy narcotic use during his life?

I have compassion for the first, little to none for the second when it comes to punishment for crimes that he has committed.

 

[ghost]

There is a certain age where children can't be expected to know right from wrong based on their comprehension level.

In other words ghost: When you hear a shrink testify in court that the defendant has the mentality of a 4 year old, they mean it literally.

Now there are issues to discuss here. Was the defendant born with limited mental faculities, or did he burn his brain out from heavy narcotic use during his life?

I have compassion for the first, little to none for the second when it comes to punishment for crimes that he has committed.

If you've seen the movie Sling Blade, you have a person who had the mind of a child, but the physical ability to kill, and he did. He knew what he was doing. Intent and ability has everything to do with it, not age or mental capacity.

 

[voltaire]

People should not be put to death by the state period. He certainly should have a tougher punishment, but death is not the answer.

God says the exact opposite in his word, including in his "New Testament" through Paul..

Death is not a deterrent to crime. Prison is a deterrent. I would rather die than go through life in prison myself.

God, who knows the hearts of men, says the exact opposite.

If we were under a righteous government that didn't have crooks in the district attorneys offices or at the police department, then I would be all for it; but only if it were for strict, premeditated murders that were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As it stands right now, what is there to stop the state for executing someone for negligent homicide? It already wrongly executes many prisoners. I fear a death penalty in the hands of people with political motives and voters to woo. If you can guarantee a perfectly righteous and flawless judicial system that would never allow the politicization of the death penalty, then I would be for it. That will never happen though, and that is why I am against it.

 

[voltaire]

If you've seen the movie Sling Blade, you have a person who had the mind of a child, but the physical ability to kill, and he did. He knew what he was doing. Intent and ability has everything to do with it, not age or mental capacity.

Sling blade is someone I think who would deserve the death penalty for the reasons you outlined. The question is : Would our system of justice execute him and not execute anyone else not guilty of proven , premeditated murder? I think not.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

If you've seen the movie Sling Blade, you have a person who had the mind of a child, but the physical ability to kill, and he did. He knew what he was doing. Intent and ability has everything to do with it, not age or mental capacity.

(Why do I have this sudden urge for french fried taters with mustard?).

As I recall from the movie, "Karl" was mentally challenged when he was born, and his "loving parents" made him sleep out in a shed on the dirt floor because of it.

Because Karl took a slingblade to a guy that had verbally tortured him throughout his life while he was having sex with Karl's mother (Karl thought she was being raped), he was placed in a mental institution out of compasssion for his very limited mental faculties.

Regarding "ability": a 3 year old can pull the trigger of a gun, so most people have the "ability".

Intent: How do you prove "intent" with a person like that? I suppose you could ask them:

Shrink: "Uh Karl, did you intend to decapitate the guy that was having sex with your mother?"

Karl: "Got any french fried taters and mustard?"

Intent is hard to prove because you have to look at the words, actions, motive AND the mental faculties of the person who committed the crime.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Actually I do get out on occasion.

Not often enough, aCW, not often enough.

While I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything, I do know this:

It wasn't following Christian doctrine that put those criminals in prison, it was following the doctrine of "nothingness" that put them there.

How's it feel to share the same religion with someone who rapes, murders and steals Silent Hunter?

Considering that there are far, FAR more people in prison for rape, murder, theft, etc., etc., etc. as a proportion of the population who profess belief in your particular version of deity than not, I'd say, "Pretty darn good thank you".

That is to say that people "following the doctrine of 'nothingness'" apparently are much, MUCH more moral than those following the "doctrine" of christianity.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but locked up in an 8x5 for the rest of their life.

Put yourself in the place of the murderer. If you didn't (couldn't or can't) understand that what you did was "wrong" would you think you deserve(d) being executed.

From what I know of this case he knew what he was doing was wrong and that if caught doing it someone would try to stop him. Thus the way he disabled the way of escape from the camp. He knew what he was doing. He just had his own set of moral judgements and he judged that what he was going to do was right. He knew that others would not think this..

Execute the murderer :loser: quickly..

 

[Town Heretic]

Should being diagnosed insane excuse capital punishment?

Yes.

If you lack the capacity to understand the difference between right and wrong you lack the capacity to understand the nature and consequence of your actions. You could meet that threshold and be perfectly capable of harming another human being.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If someone has no awareness of their actions (or the consequences of their actions) and cannot make a rational or coherent decision, then I don't believe executing them is just.

That is weird.
Those are the same criteria I have for someone that must be executed.

If someone has no awareness of their actions and goes around killing people, they must be executed.
If someone has no awareness of the consequences of their actions and goes around killing people, they must be executed.
If someone cannot make a rational ro coherent decision and goes around killing people, they must be executed.

Its just common sense.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The death penalty is a form of punishment. Our laws in the US were based on Scripture, and death was given to those that purposely took the life of another. (In order to have justice prevail, the punishment MUST fit the crime).

In scripture, even the person that took the life of another unintentionally was to be put to death to meet justice, but cities of refuge were provided for them to live in instead of death out of mercy.
The death penalty does no good in correcting the indivual being put to death, but does a lot of good in ridding the society of the evil and teaching the people in the society which behaviors will not be tolerated.