toldailytopic: Should AZ shooter Jared Loughner be forgiven?

[aSeattleConserv]

As Mr. Block correctly notes:

To whom, then, does the murderer owe his life? Obviously, to the heirs of the victim. If I murder a family man, for example, his widow and children then come to "own" me. They can put me to death, publicly, and charge admission for this event, or they can force me to do hard labor for the rest of my miserable life, the proceeds to go to them. It is a crime and a disgrace that such criminals now enjoy air conditioning, television, exercise rooms, etc. They owe a debt to (the heirs of) their victims, who are now, to add insult to injury, forced to pay again, through taxes, to maintain these miscreants in a relatively luxurious life, compared to what they richly deserve.

"Mr. Block" as in atheist Libertarian, defender of child molestation (if the circumstances are "called for") Walter Block?

What a ridiculous post. Of course Libertarians would throw a economic slant to such a sad tragedy; after all, that's what makes their (twisted) world go around.

Joey Arnold stated in his last post:

"Can we forgive and punish the same people at the same time: or do we have to either punish or forgive?"

No we can't. You can't spank your child and while doing so say "I forgive you." We can't send people to prison or put them to death saying "But we forgive you." After they've served their time and are released from prison, we're in essence "forgiving them" by allowing them to get a new start on life.

In non-capital cases, people like drbrumley can "forgive" the culprit of a crime perpetrated against him by simply not pressing charges.

However, in capital cases such as murder, the victim's family has no right to speak for another, or to decide what punishment fits the crime. God ordained the civil magistrate for that purpose. Contrary to what Libertarians will tell you, criminals don't owe a debt to their victims "heirs". In this case, anyone of us could have been at that location (provided we were democrats) and been indiscriminately shot. The crime was committed against society.

 

[ebenz47037]

toldailytopic: Should AZ shooter Jared Loughner be forgiven?

Not my place to forgive him. He did nothing to me or my family. It is the decision/s of the victims and/or their families to forgive or not to forgive him.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Not my place to forgive him. He did nothing to me or my family. It is the decision/s of the victims and/or their families to forgive or not to forgive him.

Is it really not our place to forgive to an extent?

 

[elohiym]

i don't think he is insane,he planned it and thought it out and went through with it. he's cold,calculating and gave himself over to his animal paranoia and passions willingly.

The picture of sanity.

 

[JoeyArnold]

The picture of sanity.

Depends on the painter.

 

[Sonrise]

As far as I know...he hasn't asked for it.

 

[Oneswhostilllive]

"Mr. Block" as in atheist Libertarian, defender of child molestation (if the circumstances are "called for") Walter Block?

What a ridiculous post. Of course Libertarians would throw a economic slant to such a sad tragedy; after all, that's what makes their (twisted) world go around.

Joey Arnold stated in his last post:

"Can we forgive and punish the same people at the same time: or do we have to either punish or forgive?"

No we can't. You can't spank your child and while doing so say "I forgive you." We can't send people to prison or put them to death saying "But we forgive you." After they've served their time and are released from prison, we're in essence "forgiving them" by allowing them to get a new start on life.

In non-capital cases, people like drbrumley can "forgive" the culprit of a crime perpetrated against him by simply not pressing charges.

However, in capital cases such as murder, the victim's family has no right to speak for another, or to decide what punishment fits the crime. God ordained the civil magistrate for that purpose. Contrary to what Libertarians will tell you, criminals don't owe a debt to their victims "heirs". In this case, anyone of us could have been at that location (provided we were democrats) and been indiscriminately shot. The crime was committed against society.

I think you raise a valid point, forgiveness is given by an individual who has been victimized for a crime they may not have committed or was improperly or unjustly punished for a something that may or may not have been their fault. I think you have to think about the context in which someone might need to forgive someone for doing something. For instance, when Jesus was being executed for a crime he wasn't guilty of he forgave his opponents because they didn't understand what they were doing or why they were doing it.

Do I feel victimized by someone that kills an elected government official? Yes, but in a way I feel just as responsible for this official dying as anyone else. The fact is, we the American people, knew that this man was capable of extreme violence, that he had purchased a professional killer's 9mm Glock handgun, and yet did nothing to try to get him the help he needed. How can I then forgive myself? God is going to judge me just like he will judge all those who failed in their responsibilities to protect and server our fellow countryman.

 

[Lighthouse]

Did he repent?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

The fact is, we the American people, knew that this man was capable of extreme violence, that he had purchased a professional killer's 9mm Glock handgun, and yet did nothing to try to get him the help he needed.

Do you have access to some news source that I don't? What "American people knew that this man [Jared Loughner] was capable of extreme violence"? As far as I know, he hadn't been incarcerated for anything and didn't have a parole or probation officer that should have been keeping an eye on him.

What's with the anti gun "professional killer's 9mm Glock handgun" rhetoric? Are you aware that it's a constitutional right to keep and bear arms unless you abuse that right, at which time you can be denied that right? Loughner didn't abuse it until he murdered people.

Here's what we now do know about Jared Loughner:

We know Loughner was a political radical back in 2007, according to his high school friend, college friend, bandmate and fellow liberal Caitie Parker. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Jared Loughner targeted Giffords as far back as 2007.

There was no Tea Party in 2007, or Palin (who has officially replaced George Bush as the Left bogeyman), so what will the media spin? Nothing. Facts are irrelevant! Pump out the propaganda.

After the shooting, investigators searched a safe connected to the shooting suspect, Jared Lee Loughner, and found a letter apparently sent to him by Ms. Giffords's office thanking him for previously attending a similar "Congress on your corner" event in 2007.

Much remains unknown about what motivated Mr. Loughner, who is in custody. But the initial evidence, including the constituent letter, has led law enforcement officials to think that the suspect had been thinking about the congresswoman for years, according to people familiar with the case.

Investigators also found paper on which the suspect apparently wrote the word "assassination" and "I planned ahead." The meaning or significance of that writing isn't clear.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...esswoman-gabrielle-giffords-back-in-2007.html

How can I then forgive myself?

Forgive yourself by not voting democratic in the next election. That would be a great start.

 

[Oneswhostilllive]

After the shooting, investigators searched a safe connected to the shooting suspect, Jared Lee Loughner, and found a letter apparently sent to him by Ms. Giffords's office thanking him for previously attending a similar "Congress on your corner" event in 2007.

Much remains unknown about what motivated Mr. Loughner, who is in custody. But the initial evidence, including the constituent letter, has led law enforcement officials to think that the suspect had been thinking about the congresswoman for years, according to people familiar with the case.

Investigators also found paper on which the suspect apparently wrote the word "assassination" and "I planned ahead." The meaning or significance of that writing isn't clear.

I guess I don't need to say much more about this except for the fact that more evidence is surfacing daily that would suggest that government should have done much more to investigate this individual who showed plenty of warning signs in advance that he was planning an assassination.

 

[Newman]

I guess I don't need to say much more about this except for the fact that more evidence is surfacing daily that would suggest that government should have done much more to investigate this individual who showed plenty of warning signs in advance that he was planning an assassination.

But instead, we have a government that just kills and kills.

 

[JoeyArnold]

"Mr. Block" as in atheist Libertarian, defender of child molestation (if the circumstances are "called for") Walter Block?

What a ridiculous post. Of course Libertarians would throw a economic slant to such a sad tragedy; after all, that's what makes their (twisted) world go around.

Joey Arnold stated in his last post:

"Can we forgive and punish the same people at the same time: or do we have to either punish or forgive?"

No we can't. You can't spank your child and while doing so say "I forgive you." We can't send people to prison or put them to death saying "But we forgive you." After they've served their time and are released from prison, we're in essence "forgiving them" by allowing them to get a new start on life.

In non-capital cases, people like drbrumley can "forgive" the culprit of a crime perpetrated against him by simply not pressing charges.

However, in capital cases such as murder, the victim's family has no right to speak for another, or to decide what punishment fits the crime. God ordained the civil magistrate for that purpose. Contrary to what Libertarians will tell you, criminals don't owe a debt to their victims "heirs". In this case, anyone of us could have been at that location (provided we were democrats) and been indiscriminately shot. The crime was committed against society.

Can't we forgive and punish through chastisement?

 

[JoeyArnold]

I think you raise a valid point, forgiveness is given by an individual who has been victimized for a crime they may not have committed or was improperly or unjustly punished for a something that may or may not have been their fault. I think you have to think about the context in which someone might need to forgive someone for doing something. For instance, when Jesus was being executed for a crime he wasn't guilty of he forgave his opponents because they didn't understand what they were doing or why they were doing it.

Do I feel victimized by someone that kills an elected government official? Yes, but in a way I feel just as responsible for this official dying as anyone else. The fact is, we the American people, knew that this man was capable of extreme violence, that he had purchased a professional killer's 9mm Glock handgun, and yet did nothing to try to get him the help he needed. How can I then forgive myself? God is going to judge me just like he will judge all those who failed in their responsibilities to protect and server our fellow countryman.

Are these root problems?

 

[ebenz47037]

Is it really not our place to forgive to an extent?

I'm to forgive those who sin against me. I cannot forgive someone who didn't do anything to wrong me.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I'm to forgive those who sin against me. I cannot forgive someone who didn't do anything to wrong me.

What if we're just not aware of the wrong that was done to us?

 

[ebenz47037]

What if we're just not aware of the wrong that was done to us?

I cannot forgive one for something that I'm not aware of.

My beliefs about personal forgiveness:

1) I can only forgive things done to me and/or those I know.
2) I cannot forgive things I don't know about.

And, while many here will say I'm wrong about this, the third thing I believe is that I don't have to be asked forgiveness in order to forgive someone. When anger over what has been done to me or those I know is eating away at me, I have to forgive in order to get myself back to normal. I had to forgive my mother even though she thinks she did no wrong for the abuse I suffered as a child because the anger was interfering with my everyday life. I had to forgive my ex-husband for beating me and for molesting my daughter or I would have killed him. Did I forget what these two people did to me and/or my daughter? No. Will I allow these two people to do these things again? No. Am I angry with them about these things? No.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I cannot forgive one for something that I'm not aware of.

My beliefs about personal forgiveness:

1) I can only forgive things done to me and/or those I know.
2) I cannot forgive things I don't know about.

And, while many here will say I'm wrong about this, the third thing I believe is that I don't have to be asked forgiveness in order to forgive someone. When anger over what has been done to me or those I know is eating away at me, I have to forgive in order to get myself back to normal. I had to forgive my mother even though she thinks she did no wrong for the abuse I suffered as a child because the anger was interfering with my everyday life. I had to forgive my ex-husband for beating me and for molesting my daughter or I would have killed him. Did I forget what these two people did to me and/or my daughter? No. Will I allow these two people to do these things again? No. Am I angry with them about these things? No.

If you forgive your ex-husband then you forgive Hitler?

 

[ebenz47037]

If you forgive your ex-husband then you forgive Hitler?

If he had done anything to me or my loved ones, yes. But, he didn't do anything to me or anyone I know. So, my answer is no. It's not my place to forgive Hitler and my anger with with him is not interfering with my daily life.

 

[JoeyArnold]

If he had done anything to me or my loved ones, yes. But, he didn't do anything to me or anyone I know. So, my answer is no. It's not my place to forgive Hitler and my anger with with him is not interfering with my daily life.

If you aren't forgiving Hitler then you are hating Hitler.

 

[ebenz47037]

If you aren't forgiving Hitler then you are hating Hitler.

Number one, all I know about Hitler, I learned from history books and television/movies. I've never known him personally (I'm not old enough to know him personally.). Never knowing him automatically tells me that I cannot like or dislike (love or hate) him.

Number two, I can hate what a person does without actually hating the person. Example: I hate that my sister abused her kids and lost custody of all but one of them to her ex-husband (The one she didn't lose custody of isn't his child.). I still love my sister. In fact, I love my sister enough to tell her that what she's done to her kids is wrong. By the way, I can forgive my sister for what she's done to my nephews and my niece because I know them and love them. My anger for what she's done to them could affect my every day life.

In other words, if I knew Adolf Hitler personally, I could still hate what he did/does without actually hating him. :doh: