zippy2006
New member
The corruption of that which was once good.
toldailytopic: Satan: literal or figurative?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
The corruption of that which was once good.
I suspected all along that this king was used an a example of how God knocked Satan down for rebelling against God. Satan wants to be a king but he isn't.
People give the devil too much credit. I agree with Vegas. The devil doesn't give people flat tires, ruptured radiators or cancer. These things are the result of a decaying world.
elohiym
Well-known member
Those verses are solely regarding the King of Tyre. There is no evidence to prove they relate in any way to a being called Satan. It's a completely baseless assumption. The claim those verses somehow are describing a being called Satan is a doctrine created by men.
Was "good Satan" a literal serpent or a literal "anointed cherub?" See the problem?
And don't forget, Jesus said the devil was a murderer from the beginning.
"Lucifer" was never a person's name. The word means "light bearer" and was referring solely to the King of Babylon, a man. It has nothing to do with a being called Satan.
Literal snake or literal cherub?
If the serpent is figurative, a personification of the carnal mind, then it's not an issue of anyone being created evil. If a personification, then Peter was not temporarily possessed by a disembodied Satan. If not, then Satan doesn't have a body and can possess followers of Christ (like Peter) at will, against their will.
You are free to think whatever you want to think I suppose. :idunno: I believe the evidence is beyond clear and in the favor of what I have presented.
If you don't believe God was comparing the King of Tyre to Satan who/what was He comparing him to? Was there another figure in the garden with Adam and Eve who turned evil?
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PureX
Well-known member
That would be an expression of the idea of evil. But what would be the actual substance of evil? Is it the flat tire that causes us to miss church? Is it the disease that causes someone we love to suffer? Is it the gun the killer uses to murder an innocent child? Or maybe the bullet?
Seems to me that evil does not manifest as substance, but is rather an ideal, through which we conceptualize the objects and events in the world around us. Or do you imagine that the evil is actually in the tire that suddenly deflates and causes the wreckage that corrupts the body of the child that was, preceding this event, good?
ideogenous_mover
New member
interesting, so you contend that this was when the fall of satan actually was, not at some later date. Yet Satan, if literal, still seems to "work" for God in the book of Job.
hmmm. this idea of Satan can also I think be figurative. The word also has the connotations of a simple verb, according to strong's dictionary it seems.
Satan never "works" for God.
God on occasion let Satan go unrestrained as to make a point (just as He allows evil people to often times go unrestrained), yet that doesn't mean that Satan is God's employee, just as evil people are not God's labor force.
TruthSetsFree
New member
i have heard several acounts that say otherwise
but who can prove whether those who claim to have been in Hell have really been there??
it just makes sense, though, that Hell would be torture since..
Hell is the absence of God
(God being all good)
to lose God would seem to entail losing all good
Of course hell is torture. Nobody said otherwise.
What I am saying is Satan isn't the king if hell whipping people and punishing them. Satan is just like everyone else who turned from God, in that he has created his own torture knowing that he will forever live without God's mercy.
jeffblue101
New member
literal: Matthew 25:41
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Literal, a real spiritual being.
In fact Satan is the ultimate example of iniquity and darkness.
2 Corinthians 6:15
Ryrie's treatment is not a bad starting point:
View attachment 16978
AMR
In fact Satan is the ultimate example of iniquity and darkness.
2 Corinthians 6:15
Ryrie's treatment is not a bad starting point:
View attachment 16978
AMR
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Buzzword
New member
If literal, where is he?
I mean really.
If God alone represents the highest order of existence, and everything else in creation is on the lower level, then what is the PHYSICAL location of this thing called Satan?
Figuratively, he/it can represent base human instinct, which God (the higher level of existence) offers an eventual, total escape from.
Much more wiggle room for logic and reason if we treat "Satan" as a literary device.
I mean really.
If God alone represents the highest order of existence, and everything else in creation is on the lower level, then what is the PHYSICAL location of this thing called Satan?
Figuratively, he/it can represent base human instinct, which God (the higher level of existence) offers an eventual, total escape from.
Much more wiggle room for logic and reason if we treat "Satan" as a literary device.
Liberalism.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
LadyGreenEyes
New member
Literal. The Bible is clear that he was an angel, that rebelled and sinned against God, all because of pride, and that he took about a third of the other angels with him. Talk about pride going before a fall!!
As for a body, yes, he can have one, just as unfallen angels can. Agree that he is not the cause of all evil. We are responsible for our own actions, though people can and are influenced by the fallen ones.
Agree as well that he is NOT in charge of Hell. He will be a prisoner there just like all the rest. he isn't some equal-but-opposite with God, but is a created being, and subject to God's rule as are all His creations.
As for a body, yes, he can have one, just as unfallen angels can. Agree that he is not the cause of all evil. We are responsible for our own actions, though people can and are influenced by the fallen ones.
Agree as well that he is NOT in charge of Hell. He will be a prisoner there just like all the rest. he isn't some equal-but-opposite with God, but is a created being, and subject to God's rule as are all His creations.
It's been said that the greatest work Satan has ever accomplished is having people convinced he doesn't exist. He is literal, actual, and is right over the shoulders of those who deny it.
The reason why some would go to say that Satan is 'figurative' is because the Bible, in funny ways, can give the impression that Satan is simply the unGodly character of our fallen nature. For example, when Jesus went and fasted for 40 days, it was his struggling will ans not an actual being tempting him. Some will go to say that Satan would never tempt God period, and so how could this have happened?
I am not a Trinitarian, in fact I'm quite the contrary, but whether one posits that it was because God was in the flesh and therefore subject to temptation or that Jesus just simply isn't God Himself, the whole of the Bible reveals a real and living Satan. It's indisputable. In fact, there are other angels to be named, such as Leviathan, Belial, Azazel, and so on that stand out a bit from the 1/3. One will just have to look beyond the biblical canon to have all that revealed to them.
The reason why some would go to say that Satan is 'figurative' is because the Bible, in funny ways, can give the impression that Satan is simply the unGodly character of our fallen nature. For example, when Jesus went and fasted for 40 days, it was his struggling will ans not an actual being tempting him. Some will go to say that Satan would never tempt God period, and so how could this have happened?
I am not a Trinitarian, in fact I'm quite the contrary, but whether one posits that it was because God was in the flesh and therefore subject to temptation or that Jesus just simply isn't God Himself, the whole of the Bible reveals a real and living Satan. It's indisputable. In fact, there are other angels to be named, such as Leviathan, Belial, Azazel, and so on that stand out a bit from the 1/3. One will just have to look beyond the biblical canon to have all that revealed to them.
Guildenstern
New member
Satan is able to control aspects of the world. He "entered into" Judas to coerce him to hand over Jesus. As demonstrated through the temptation of Jesus upon a great mountain, it is obvious that he has/had perfect control over the world at that time.
It is not only obvious he is literal, but that during the rebuke of that human king of Tyre, the messenger of God that was relaying the message was also speaking directly to Satan who was in attendance at that event. There is clearly a duality to his message.
The OP is spot on. Sadly, I really do not have anything to add to this discussion. If Satan were truly figurative, it seems quite ridiculous that both God, Jesus, angels, and humans (all of literal creation) were able to have literal, physical interactions with him...
faramir77
New member
Seminary Camp or Divinity Camp. The Literal Camp or Actual Camp.
To get from Horeb to Zion one must pass through the Valley of Bacca, and the road back to Eden is fraught with peril.
Isaiah 14 "Lucifer" was a term and concept introduced by St. Jerome when translating
Latin Vulgate for the Romanists. The term in Hebrew is Helel or Helail (i forget exactally) which means "Boaster" or one who makes great claims or boasts.
Diablo, The Accuser of the bretheren, who spends his time speaking against those who claim attonement thru the blood of Christ.
Ooh, a shadow just passed over the sun. Creepy.
To get from Horeb to Zion one must pass through the Valley of Bacca, and the road back to Eden is fraught with peril.
Isaiah 14 "Lucifer" was a term and concept introduced by St. Jerome when translating
Latin Vulgate for the Romanists. The term in Hebrew is Helel or Helail (i forget exactally) which means "Boaster" or one who makes great claims or boasts.
Diablo, The Accuser of the bretheren, who spends his time speaking against those who claim attonement thru the blood of Christ.
Ooh, a shadow just passed over the sun. Creepy.
I don't ever make light of evil! It exists and it uses any means possible to sow discord, discontent, envy, greed, judgmentalism, elitism and not to forget gluttony!