toldailytopic: People say: You can't legislate morality. Is that true?

[Atheist PhD]

If you really do have a doctorate, if I were you I'd ask for a refund.



Of course not, just the ones that don't suit your own personal needs.




I deal with egomaniac atheists like you daily. You honestly believe that you can defeat God; amazing.

I wondered when the ad homs would begin, congratulations... when you run out of valid or in your case invalid arguments, LET THE NAME CALLING BEGIN!!!!! You are a hoot, I'll give you that...

I defeated god a LONG time ago, when reason and enlightenment allowed me to look into all the nooks and crannies of your religion and I found the truth. The reason you deal with "egomaniac" atheists like me daily is because you seek us out, and then you lose, miserably.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Because Libertarianism is possibly one of the most incompatible ideologies with Islam around. Only Objectivism, or a very left-wing pagan would fare worse.

Incompatible? Have you looked at the LP Platform lately?

Their stance on "personal liberty" is similar to Islam and their view on homosexuality/pedophilia:

http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm

A Muslim's treatment of women is comparable to that of a pro-prostitution, pro-pornographic Libertarian:
http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/IslamicVoodoos/Part15a.htm

http://www.lp.org/platform

Both treat women like a cheap piece of property (i.e. meat).

 

[Atheist PhD]

This is really idiotic, even for you.

Decompensation can get ugly, and this is just plain UGLY.. with a capital UUUUUUUU......:up:

 

[Granite]

Fido, adults are talking here. Please don't interrupt.

You're a burn-out cop without a clue. Trying to make it seem like Islam and any form of political libertarianism share similiarties is asinine and idiotic.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

I wondered when the ad homs would begin, congratulations... when you run out of valid or in your case invalid arguments, LET THE NAME CALLING BEGIN!!!!! You are a hoot, I'll give you that...

You're confusing name calling with mockery (something I've done to atheists since the second they crawled out from under the rock that they oooooze under).

 

[Atheist PhD]

The SS said the same thing about Hitler's answer to the Jewish question.

Why do Christians have such facination with Hitler? You are stretching, and badly I might add. Even YOU should know that to attempt to compare Nazi Germany to the United States legal system is just plain WRONG... and it's beneath you to do so.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

You're a burn-out cop without a clue. Trying to make it seem like Islam and any form of political libertarianism share similiarties is asinine and idiotic.

I can understand why someone that goes around sniffing crotches wouldn't understand something like that.

 

[Granite]

I can understand why someone that goes around sniffing crotches wouldn't understand something like that.

Yeah. Dog jokes. We get it. What are you, twelve?

There is zero comparison to made to American libertarian thought and militant Islam. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. Anyone who says or insists otherwise is a fool, buffoon, and liar.

 

[Atheist PhD]

You're confusing name calling with mockery (something I've done to atheists since the second they crawled out from under the rock that they oooooze under).

Nope, I'm pretty sure I know name calling when I see it, AD HOM attacks are easily identified.

I'll be over here under my ooozy rock, if you need me... :devil:

 

[Atheist PhD]

Yeah. Dog jokes. We get it. What are you, twelve?

There is zero comparison to made to American libertarian thought and militant Islam. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. Anyone who says or insists otherwise is a fool, buffoon, and liar.

Sad isn't it... I swear I can see her mouth moving, but I don't see the strings, do you?

 

[Skavau]

Incompatible? Have you looked at the LP Platform lately?

Yes, Sharia Law has absolutely no regard nor care for personal liberty (which, incase you haven't noticed is the foundation of Libertarianism). Sharia Law supports specific religious-based legislation on freedom of speech (banning depictions of Muhammad and insults towards Islam). It supports and prescribes punishments for apostasy, alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, adultery, pornography and fornication.

Even music is frowned upon and to be kept quiet. You know absolutely nothing about Sharia Law.

 

[zippy2006]

I defeated god a LONG time ago, when reason and enlightenment allowed me to look into all the nooks and crannies of your religion and I found the truth.

Don't look too hard, else the ground itself might open up and swallow you and your 'truth' :chuckle:

:mock:nooks and crannies

 

[Lost Comet]

What's the difference between morality that is legislated and morality based on the concept of heaven and hell -- fear of punishment and the hope of reward?

 

[Lighthouse]

I NEVER once attempted to interpret what Knight meant, that was YOUR ISSUE, mine was nothing more than to offer my own opinion.

Say what?

Then perhaps you should give us some examples of what you consider morality, outside of the obvious like rape, murder, theft, etc... I fear we are now going to step into the realm of homosexuality, etc... am I right?

YOU then rebuked everyone who had an opinion that wasn't yours, and what you interpreted Knight's opinion to be. Silly boy.

And?

The problem is you simply CAN'T be wrong, not in your mind, nothing anyone can say will change that, it is who you are, and I respect that, well a little, anyway. But, that doesn't stop you from BEING wrong, and for taking a stance, then twisting it to your own immediate need. And, all you could say about me was that I couldn't make a smiley face icon on the internet.. Wow...

I've been wrong, plenty of times. In fact, I used to be wrong on issues related to this one.

And I made one singular comment about you not knowing how to make the wink face, and you, in your insecurity, ran with it to defend yourself. How sad.

Then there was what you wrote on my profile. And though you deleted it it was reported before you got that chance, so plenty of people have been able to see it.

 

[Krsto]

Well far be it for me to buck a trend but I must say we CAN and DO legislate morality. So far in the first three pages of responses no one has mentioned the conscience and how it is formed. I submit a person's conscience, though not perfect and not the strongest determiner of a person's morals, does to some small degree influence a person's morals and that conscience is to some small degree shaped by the laws of the land in which he grows up.

Let's take smoking pot, for example. On average, 15 year olds who grow up in a society which has strong laws against smoking pot will have a conscience that speaks louder to them telling them not to do it than 15 year olds who grow up in a society that has legalized it, and I don't think the message the conscience is giving has 100% to do with the consequences of getting caught. Some portion of that conscience is going to be shaped by the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the act as determined by the society and as reflected in the laws it has passed. Whether you believe it is right or wrong to smoke pot is not the issue, the issue is whether the 15 year old who is about to smoke it for the first time has had his morality shaped by the laws of the land or lack thereof.

I'm not giving rationale for legislating morality since laws are only marginally effective in doing so and may not be the wisest thing to do, I'm just arguing against the blanket statement "you can't legislate morality." I tend toward libertarianism but as a parent raising my children I do appreciate it when the laws of the land back up what I am trying to teach my children.

 

[Silent Hunter]

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Idealy, no; that was never the intent of the founders of the US government.

Excluding that . . . define “moral.”

 

[Lon]

"No, it is untrue."

Reword it to understand:

"Can you legislate conviction? Can you legislate love?"

Of course you can legislate it but it has to "come" from those values of conviction.
So, we can 'vote in' morality, uphold it, follow it.

Legislate means to "make laws concerning." We can indeed make laws about moral issues and do so all the time. I agree with a few that have said you can't 'make' another internalize those values, but in our imago deo view of man, he/she has them already but in an order of disrepair. We teach for moral integrity externally. Any external motivator for moral behavior seeks to have society internalize those shared values. Even agnostics and atheists understand social behavior necessity (with few exceptions).

 

[Krsto]

If the civil magistrate, one of three institutions ordained by God for the governance of men (the other two being the family and the Church) can't "legislate" morality,

Yikes! That's not the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church is to be a minister (collectively) of the New Covenant.

 

[MaryContrary]

Yikes! That's not the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church is to be a minister (collectively) of the New Covenant.

A question follows here then...does that include promoting general order? And would that include support for just laws establishing order?

 

[Krsto]

A question follows here then...does that include promoting general order? And would that include support for just laws establishing order?

Yes, rule by law (civil law), and not by men, as contributors to the body politic by helping to elect godly representatives and influencing them once they get elected. I get nervous when people think of church leaders as "governors of men." That speaks to me of control and missing the point of the New Covenant: God dwelling within and changing a person by the power of the Holy Spirit to conform to God's way of thinking and acting without a need for external control. He who walks in the Spirit will in no wise fulfill the lusts of the flesh and laws are for the unlawful.