toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[serpentdove]

Umm look it up on wikipedia?

We've slipped into Christian-talk again, haven't we?

You should hate legalism. Atheists usually do. But what they fail to understand is, Christians hate it too (true blue Christians that is).

We want freedom from religion just like you-- trust in Christ is that freedom (Jn 8:36).

“When I was converted, I lost my religion.” --Dr. W.I. Carroll

 

[serpentdove]

I always find it annoying when Christians take their world-view, paste in onto Judaism and come up with statements like this. "Earn our way back to God" assumes a Christian viewpoint of Original Sin.

You deny that Judaism is work-based?

Judaism, Catholicism, Islam (or any other work-based faith) are more closely related than historical, biblical Christianity. All religions of the world are work-based. Christianity is faith based (Eph 2:8).

"Ritualism is nothing more than a rut, and the only difference between a rut and a grave is the length and the depth." -- Chuck Smith

Are you an ethical monotheist?

 

[elohiym]

We probably need a rule of thumb...oly:

:think:

Tom Thumb on legalism: "I thought if I tried hard enough, I could make myself big."

 

[Trumpetfolker]

Legalism is trying to accomplish through the soulical creation and enforcement of rules what can only be accomplished by following of God as a dear child.

 

[serpentdove]

Legalism is trying to accomplish through the soulical creation and enforcement of rules what can only be accomplished by following of God as a dear child.

Yep. That too. :thumb:

 

[chair]

You deny that Judaism is work-based?

Judaism, Catholicism, Islam (or any other work-based faith) are more closely related than historical, biblical Christianity. All religions of the world are work-based. Christianity is faith based (Eph 2:8).

"Ritualism is nothing more than a rut, and the only difference between a rut and a grave is the length and the depth." -- Chuck Smith

Are you an ethical monotheist?

1. Read my post again. The whole "work-based" or "faith-based" issue is an internal Christian issue. It presupposes that man is far from God (as a result of Adam's sin), and needs to either do or believe something in order to get closer to God and ultimately make it to Heaven. We don't think that way. In Judaism we do our best to follow the commandments and ancient traditions- but not for the reasons you assume. We are not part of that game at all.

2. I always wonder where "historical, biblical Christianity" was for over 1,000 years, before the protestant movement got off the ground.

 

[elohiym]

In Judaism we do our best to follow the commandments and ancient traditions- but not for the reasons you assume. We are not part of that game at all.

That's right, people. Forget that silly covenant that the Jews made with God (Deut 6:25). Just ignore the entire Old Testament, the law and the prophets, and listen to Chair. He and his Jewish buddies are running their own game.

 

[andyc]

Give us an example of how you uphold the "moral law" please. :idunno:

Simple.
I have no desire to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, worship other gods etc. This desire comes from a changed heart, the heart of God.

 

[andyc]

This board is teeming with legalists. While I think it's important to boot them from the church, and avoid them if family, I also think it's important to have them on TOL so their doctrines can be exposed and dispatched.

Likewise the same goes for the many modern day gnostics here who teach salvation by knowledge alone.

 

[elohiym]

Simple.
I have no desire to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, worship other gods etc. This desire comes from a changed heart, the heart of God.

Then how can you sin?

Likewise the same goes for the many modern day gnostics here who teach salvation by knowledge alone.

I can't say I've encountered anyone on here that believes salvation is by knowledge at all, let alone Gnostics who believe that.

 

[andyc]

Then how can you sin?

Disobeying what was taught by Christ, the apostles, and by hardening my heart to the voice of the Spirit.

Mat 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

Letter of the law under the old covenant.

28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Spirit of the law under the new covenant. Verse 28 has nothing to do with the old covenant law, it is a matter of the heart that is changed through faith in Christ.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

I can't say I've encountered anyone on here that believes salvation is by knowledge at all, let alone Gnostics who believe that.

Keep watching.

 

[elohiym]

Disobeying what was taught by Christ, the apostles, and by hardening my heart to the voice of the Spirit.

How do you disobey if it's your desire not to based on regeneration?

Obviously, if you disobey (fail to keep a law), it's not your desire to obey.

 

[andyc]

How do you disobey if it's your desire not to based on regeneration?

It's not my desire to disobey the letter of the law.

Obviously, if you disobey (fail to keep a law), it's not your desire to obey.

That's right.
The letter of the law is concerning legalistic righteousness of the flesh. This shouldn't be a problem for Spirit filled Christians. What commandments do you struggle with?

 

[elohiym]

It's not my desire to disobey the letter of the law.

But you do it anyway? :idunno:

You're not making sense.

 

[andyc]

But you do it anyway? :idunno:

You're not making sense.

I may have disobeyed some of the OT commandments in the past, but it is a very rare thing for me (most Christians I would say). I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, Covet, worship other gods etc....this is basic morality for a Christian.

 

[elohiym]

I may have disobeyed some of the OT commandments in the past, but it is a very rare thing for me (most Christians I would say).

So in the past, if I'm understanding you correctly, it wasn't your desire to obey; but now, having been regenerated, it is your desire to obey; however, you still, very rarely, disobey even though it's your desire to keep the law.

Is that what you're saying?

I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, Covet, worship other gods etc....this is basic morality for a Christian.

Why do you omit the fourth commandment, the commandment to remember the sabbath and keep it holy? Can I assume you do not rest from your labors on the sabbath?

 

[andyc]

So in the past, if I'm understanding you correctly, it wasn't your desire to obey; but now, having been regenerated, it is your desire to obey; however, you still, very rarely, disobey even though it's your desire to keep the law.

Is that what you're saying?

Obviously gentiles are not obligated to obey, because they are not under the law. The moral law in written form is not hard for a Christian. I'm not going to be tempted today to covet, lie, steal, murder, commit adultery etc. However, I might be tempted to not go to church, but this has nothing to do with the law, it is a heart issue.

Why do you omit the fourth commandment, the commandment to remember the sabbath and keep it holy? Can I assume you do not rest from your labors on the sabbath?

Christ is our sabbath rest, and therefore that law is abolished through faith in Christ.

 

[chair]

That's right, people. Forget that silly covenant that the Jews made with God (Deut 6:25). Just ignore the entire Old Testament, the law and the prophets, and listen to Chair. He and his Jewish buddies are running their own game.

You are continuing the same game, interpreting the term "righteousness" in the Christian manner, and assuming that that is what it meant to the Israelites in the Old Testament times. If anybody is ignoring the whole bulk of the law and prophets, it is you.

Where in the law does it say "eat kosher so you can escape Adam's sin"? Where does it say "keep the law so you will get to heaven"?
Look at the section from Deuteronomy:

20 In the future, when your son asks you, "What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the LORD our God has commanded you?" 21 tell him: "We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the LORD sent miraculous signs and wonders—great and terrible—upon Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land that he promised on oath to our forefathers. 24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."

The stated goal of the commandments is :" that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today." Without the Christian interpretation of the word "righteousness" you have no case.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

I don't Covet

You are a liar.

 

[andyc]

You are a liar.

No..you are covetous