toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[Lighthouse]

It is legalistic to believe that one can perform any action to lose their salvation.

It is also legalistic to add to the rules God has set forth.

I deal with it by asking for Scripture, and providing my own.

 

[Cracked]

It is also legalistic to add to the rules God has set forth.

The most correct thing said about legalism in this discussion so far.
:up:

I might also add that legalism can be focusing on the letter of the law, as apposed to the spirit of the law.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

The most correct thing said about legalism in this discussion so far.
:up:

I might also add that legalism can be focusing on the letter of the law, as apposed to the spirit of the law.

What is the "spirit of the law"?

 

[Cracked]

Well, it is what Jesus taught. He was/is the true interpreter. For example - Matthew 12:12. I've never really thought of it before, but could it be true that you cannot truly understand the law without possessing the Spirit?

 

[ProphecyKid]

I just think people use legalism as a way to brand people they don't agree with. There are so many definitions given here for legalism. Legalism is simply a teaching that says that you must keep the law and do xyz in order to be saved. For discussion sake, let me ask this question. Was Jesus a legalist?

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

 

[ProphecyKid]

Well, it is what Jesus taught. He was/is the true interpreter. For example - Matthew 12:12. I've never really thought of it before, but could it be true that you cannot truly understand the law without possessing the Spirit?

Somehow people believe that the spirit of the law is something completely different to the letter of the law. It is not. There is nothing wrong with the letter of the law. There was everything wrong with human comprehension and practice of it. If you dont have love in your heart it doesn't matter how much people you dont kill or how much lies you dont tell. It does not matter if you stick to the letter of the law. Once there is not love in your heart it comes to nothing. But if you have love it doesn't mean that the letter somehow is void. You will still keep the letter but like Jesus showed us it goes further than just the mere words of the law. You can stay away from another man's wife and still commit adultery by the spirit of the law. But what does that do to the command "thou shalt not commit adultery"? It just broadens its meaning. It fulfills it. It fills it full. So Jesus did good works on the Sabbath and he said it is lawful (not against the law) to do good on the Sabbath. What does that do to the 4th commandment? It broadens it the same way, it fills it full.

 

[Cracked]

Somehow people believe that the spirit of the law is something completely different to the letter of the law. It is not. There is nothing wrong with the letter of the law. There was everything wrong with human comprehension and practice of it. If you dont have love in your heart it doesn't matter how much people you dont kill or how much lies you dont tell. It does not matter if you stick to the letter of the law. Once there is not love in your heart it comes to nothing. But if you have love it doesn't mean that the letter somehow is void. You will still keep the letter but like Jesus showed us it goes further than just the mere words of the law. You can stay away from another man's wife and still commit adultery by the spirit of the law. But what does that do to the command "thou shalt not commit adultery"? It just broadens its meaning. It fulfills it. It fills it full. So Jesus did good works on the Sabbath and he said it is lawful (not against the law) to do good on the Sabbath. What does that do to the 4th commandment? It broadens it the same way, it fills it full.

Interesting. So, then, the law through love. Cool stuff...

 

[MaryContrary]

What is the "spirit of the law"?

Romans 2:29
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:4
that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Nick M]

Great answers so far...

How would you (or should) you go about handling those that are bringing legalism into your church or family?

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

 

[Nick M]

I might also add that legalism can be focusing on the letter of the law, as apposed to the spirit of the law.

Don't feel bad, I missed it also. Spirit is with a capital "S" and does not mean what the cliche' meaning is. It means what Sozo's signature is saying.

Those who keep it for salvation have failed, and are not in the Spirit.

Like, Knight, if you kick them out of the church...could that cause dissension to the point of a church split?

So what? That is good.

Matthew 10

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;

36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me

Mary C...is it legalistic to trust Holy Spirit to work through you?

In the way you mean it, yes. The work is already done, there is no more.

Repenting of something is a good way to examine you are on your way to hell.

man made rules, such as not drinking alcoholic beverages, not dancing, no card playing and other man-made moralities are necessary to be a good Christian.

Including the Pastor if he stands up there says things like this, and tells you he owes you 10%, and God will bless you if you give your tithe.

Good topic. :up:

 

[Cracked]

So what? That is good.

Matthew 10

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;

36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me

I agree with this. Jesus brought division, because He new that false teachers would creep in. He knew that people would be seduced, and He expects that His sheep will hear Him through the din.

So, let there be division! For where division is, there is truth.

 

[andyc]

What is the "spirit of the law"?

The spirit of the law is the nature of the person behind the law. The law itself is simply the written code of dos and don'ts, but the person who wrote the document is righteous by nature. To be obligated to obey the law, is what we understand as the letter of the law, but to have the natural desire to uphold what the law teaches, this is the spirit of the law.

Jer 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.34 "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

All of this is fulfilled in us by the indwelling Holy Spirit. We uphold the moral law because that is our desire as a result of regeneration. Through the indwelling Holy Spirit we have intimately come to know God as our Father, and because we are his seed, we are conformed to his likeness. We are no longer obligated to obey (like slaves), our natural desire is to uphold what the moral law teaches (as sons).

 

[Nick M]

I agree with this. Jesus brought division, because He new that false teachers would creep in. He knew that people would be seduced, and He expects that His sheep will hear Him through the din.

So, let there be division! For where division is, there is truth.

I am out of context here, but he did say his sheep will know his voice.

 

[Nick M]

We uphold the moral law because that is our desire as a result of regeneration.

Get saved.

 

[elohiym]

This board is teeming with legalists. While I think it's important to boot them from the church, and avoid them if family, I also think it's important to have them on TOL so their doctrines can be exposed and dispatched.

 

[elohiym]

We uphold the moral law because that is our desire as a result of regeneration. Through the indwelling Holy Spirit we have intimately come to know God as our Father, and because we are his seed, we are conformed to his likeness. We are no longer obligated to obey (like slaves), our natural desire is to uphold what the moral law teaches (as sons).

Give us an example of how you uphold the "moral law" please. :idunno:

 

[kmoney]

To me, legalism is trying to relate to God through laws and subjective standards instead of love which is not subject to any law. Love is above the law, like God Himself.

I'm not sure how I'd define it. I think the answer above is pretty good though. And I think legalism is often involved if someone is trying to figure out if something is a sin. Or if they are sinning by doing something.

 

[Town Heretic]

I'm not sure how I'd define it.

We probably need a rule of thumb...oly:

 

[chair]

Legalism is the assumption that the law is given by God for people to fulfill in their lives is possible and necessary for us to earn our way back to God. This is most relevant among Orthodox Jews and some sects of Muslims. The law ia revelation of sin; no one can live according to the law. Those who follow the law, do so in a less than full realization of the law and its intention. The sacrifice of God through the person of Jesus Christ has replaced the law and given humanity an authentic means to enter heaven. The law teaches us the reason why we needed a Saviour, for only God can make us worthy.

I always find it annoying when Christians take their world-view, paste in onto Judaism and come up with statements like this. "Earn our way back to God" assumes a Christian viewpoint of Original Sin.

 

[serpentdove]

... obtain or retain his salvation.

I like Gino Geraci's definition: When my opinion becomes your obligation (e.g. work-based faiths).