toldailytopic: Is there hope for all people?

[Nydhogg]

You didn't address the point of the *universe* eventually ripping itself into an empty goo of infinite entropy.
If we get technical, EVERYTHING is screwed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

That surely has some metaphysical implications, doesn't it?

 

[ghost]

Upon our glorification in the next life we'll have full faith and, therefore, full assurance.

Actually, there will be no faith, hope or grace then, which is why Paul said that love is the greatest.

 

[John Mortimer]

You didn't address the point of the *universe* eventually ripping itself into an empty goo of infinite entropy.
If we get technical, EVERYTHING is screwed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

That surely has some metaphysical implications, doesn't it?

The second law of thermodynamics is a design feature of this universe - it facilitates the recycling of the energy locked within all lifeless form.

All forms are the product of the action of creative consciousness. If a form is lifeless - and thus unable to grow and transcend itself - it will eventually be broken down by the action of the second law of thermodynamics; this law applies not only in the physical realm but also in the emotional, mental and etheric realms.
The distribution of the subatomic particles constituting matter within a given form tends toward the most statistically probable distribution & the form is broken down. (Even the totality of our universe is a form).

It is important to recognize that the universe is not a closed system. Black holes remove energy whilst new energy is ceaselessly introduced via self-conscious beings such as ourselves.

Eventually our universe will not die but ascend.

 

[desertfox]

God says He wants all men (not just some) to come to repentance.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But not all men repent, therefore we must have the ability to thwart God's desire that we repent.

I think the question in the OP and some of the responses that followed represent more of a contemporary definition of "hope" rather than a biblical one. We like to think of hope like a wish, or something that we think could possibly happen and that we would prefer that it did. But biblically speaking, hope is much more of a term of absolute certainty. Like you wouldn't say you "hope" it's going to rain tomorrow unless you really expected it to.
From a human perspective, it might be correct to think of hope as something all men have as some kind of potential to be a part of God's kingdom, but when you simply ask, "Is there hope for all people?" it sounds like you are asking from God's perspective. These verses you quote say that God "wants" all to be saved, but I don't think you can say that He actually "hopes" for all to be saved since he knows that many people will not be, Matthew 7:13. So from His perspective, hope is only available for those who will ultimately be saved and those are the only ones who are really given the opportunity/ability.

 

[Lighthouse]

Indeed so.

This why the New Testament reads "repent and believe" (Matthew 21:32, Mark 1:15) instead of 'believe and repent'.

Repentance and belief both come from regeneration. But repentance precedes -and is a step toward- conversion.

We convert to Christ because we are repentant, as He is the Savior from sins.

No.

Repentance is a change of mind. The verses mean to "Change your mind, and believe..." That is not one act preceding another, rather it is a singular act.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Butt out, ghost.

I refuse to discuss hypotheticals about Lucky and his family with you.

If Lucky wants to know my views, he can ask me and get valid answers from me directly . . . not a twisted version of my beliefs through your perverted mental grid or overlarged pie-hole.

Nang

Well, sorry Nang but it's not exactly a 'twisted' version of your beliefs at all. You expressly told me that my nieces could die today and if not predestined to be part of the 'elect' they'd rot in an eternal hell when pressed for an answer. I'm not saying it's what you'd wish but it's what you and your theology dictate, so not much point getting all defensive when a hypothetical illustration of an entirely similar scenario is presented. None of Lucky's hypothetical or future kids can be spared without God having already 'sealed the deal' in advance according to your dogma. This is why I told you it was pointless to pray for my nieces given your belief because they're either destined one way or the other from the outset.

I don't subscribe to the modern *orthodox* view on hell either be it the settled or open view as a place of eternal separation/torment but this 'predestined' to hell thing is just unreal.....

 

[freelight]

~*~*~

Hope Springs Eternal

~*~*~

Hope will always exist where the potential for life, consciousness and individual freedom avails.



pj

 

[Hecatin]

It's not a matter of questioning God's ability to recognize their sincerity, but rather the person's ability to actually be repentant. IMO, people such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Susan Smith and Richard Allen Davis are not/were not capable of being truly repentant for their crimes.

If they don't have the capacity to repent, they probably also didn't have the capacity to truly understand the magnitude of their actions. I'm sure mental health defect would be valid 'excuse' (for lack of better phrasing) to god.

 

[Stripe]

When Nick and Arthur are both arguing against you, you better believe there's something wrong. :chuckle:

 

[Zeke]

Indeed so.

This why the New Testament reads "repent and believe" (Matthew 21:32, Mark 1:15) instead of 'believe and repent'.

Repentance and belief both come from regeneration. But repentance precedes -and is a step toward- conversion.

We convert to Christ because we are repentant, as He is the Savior from sins.

The new testament didn't come into play until the death of the testator.
And seeing the cross was hid from them all (Luke 18:34) until after the fact your point is mute, unless your still asking the Lord what you must do to obtain eternal life under the OT (Luke 18:18) Are you following the prescription under the law that Jesus gave the rich youg ruler? (Luke 18:22) I doubt it.

 

[rainee]

Is there hope for all people?

No there is one, and only one group of people, that I know of, for whom there is no hope. There is a group of people commonly labeled five point Calvinists.
They believe God chose them and prepared them for salvation. All others are lost, and without hope.

In probably the greatest irony of all time and eternity, the people who believe this doctrine of Satan, and think they are God's chosen and can never be lost, are in fact the exact opposite.

They are the only ones for whom there is no hope and no salvation, because God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

There is no greater pride that one "cannot see", concerning one's self, than to say that God chose who would be saved and "I", yes "I" am one of God's chosen.

:jawdrop:

Greetings Todah!
Surely you jest? You are kidding, yes?

Let me ask you not about a group of people, no - but about one person: Judas, ok?

Was Judas one of those you speak of above?
Was Judas saved or lost?


What about Judas?

Did Judas have hope?
He had the chance to see and travel with the Lord on earth.
Judas got to see the miracles, and the Spirit of the Lord may have striven with him while he was in His company.


But despite every advantage he had that was brimming with hope
he did fulfill negative prophecy.

You can say, perhaps, Judas rejected the Lord as anything more than a man.
Or you could say that the Spirit of the Lord stopped wrestling with Judas when He finally said, "What you do, do quickly."

But prophecy came true, and I believe that.

But I also believe there is hope for the living.

What about that?

 

[Todah]

:jawdrop:

Greetings Todah!
Surely you jest? You are kidding, yes?

Let me ask you not about a group of people, no - but about one person: Judas, ok?

Was Judas one of those you speak of above?
Was Judas saved or lost?


What about Judas?

Did Judas have hope?
He had the chance to see and travel with the Lord on earth.
Judas got to see the miracles, and the Spirit of the Lord may have striven with him while he was in His company.


But despite every advantage he had that was brimming with hope
he did fulfill negative prophecy.

You can say, perhaps, Judas rejected the Lord as anything more than a man.
Or you could say that the Spirit of the Lord stopped wrestling with Judas when He finally said, "What you do, do quickly."

But prophecy came true, and I believe that.

But I also believe there is hope for the living.

What about that?

I am not quite sure where you are going with your questions.:think:

Judas was not a five point Calvinist, so he had hope. The Bible states quite clearly, that he was lost. The prophecy about him was true. It was his own doing, that got him lost, not the prophecy that damned him.

Five point Calvinist who think that they are the predetermined elect, are the only ones who have no hope of ever being saved, no matter what they do, or don't do! They simply have insurmountable pride, and Jesus's precious blood did not pay for that particular sin. They are correct in their third point....Limited atonement.

I am truly sorry for them, but God is Sovereign, and man can not change his sovereignty, or he would no longer be God, and we would no longer be man.

That's the way it feels to me. How does that make you feel?

 

[rainee]

Judas was not a five point Calvinist, so he had hope.

...


That's the way it feels to me. How does that make you feel?

I think that sentence makes laugh

But about the more serious -
I was serious when I said I think the Spirit of the Lord does strive with men ( er, everyone) And I do believe this same can stop wrestling with men. I think people may try to blame God for their not believing in the end and then they will see how God did reach out to them many times.
But I am a 5 point Calvinist just not talking about what those
5 points are about.
I thought Nang did a beautiful job of that with Lucky. Did you stop and read it?
It was lovely!



What do you think of that? (Nite nite, sweet dreams)