toldailytopic: How does God judge the mentally handicapped when they die?

[TomO]

TomO - you are so desperately off-base with your comment on how much they've been given, I don't know where to begin...

lain: We are talking a matter of degrees here. We are also referring to mental ability. Kinght specifically referred to someone who does not have the mental capability to respond to the gospel message. This would indicate a profound level of handicap. If you feel that one can have a rational discussion of the implications of morality and ethics with such a one then I beg to differ.

In any case I would suggest that it might be best to heed agnostic_gnostic's advice to you for the remainder of this thread. To do so will save everyone some head/heartache.

 

[Cracked]

lain: We are talking a matter of degrees here. We are also referring to mental ability. Kinght specifically referred to someone who does not have the mental capability to respond to the gospel message. This would indicate a profound level of handicap. If you feel that one can have a rational discussion of the implications of morality and ethics with such a one then I beg to differ.

Jesus tells us about this concept in the lesson of the widow's mite - a poor marginalized person who gives her whole self, symbolically with the total of her meager treasure, to God (Luke 21:1-4). She gave all that she had, not more than she had. Taking some liberties with another verse of Scripture (that TomO provided), we can come to the same conclusion. Jesus states, "...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked" (Luke 12:48). It would be logical to assume that one could only contribute to the extent of what they were given (their physical ability, mental capacity) and that this would be governed by the spirit.

Materialistic concerns are satisfied by an understanding of dualism.

It would be accurate to claim that if a woman lost her legs, God would not expect her to walk. Yet, if He did, He would give her legs.

 

[TomO]

Jesus tells us about this concept in the lesson of the widow's mite - a poor marginalized person who gives her whole self, symbolically with the total of her meager treasure, to God (Luke 21:1-4). She gave all that she had, not more than she had. Taking some liberties with another verse of Scripture (that TomO provided), we can come to the same conclusion. Jesus states, "...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked" (Luke 12:48). It would be logical to assume that one could only contribute to the extent of what they were given (their physical ability, mental capacity) and that this would be governed by the spirit.

Materialistic concerns are satisfied by an understanding of dualism.

It would be accurate to claim that if a woman lost her legs, God would not expect her to walk. Yet, if He did, He would give her legs.

Yeah....what he said. lain:

 

[ghost]

"And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand" Jonah 4:11

Looks like godrulz is going to make it after all :doh: I mean :banana:

 

[Random]

I agree.

But they have not accepted Jesus into their heart.
Yet at the same time they do not have the faculties to understand the gospel message.

I think it would depend on the degree of their handicap and how aware and in control they are of their own actions. As you know there are some people whose mental capacities are so stunted and diminished that they can't even form words; let alone know their own names. In cases such as that I think it would be in the same vein as an infant who dies. There is no possible way for them to be held accountable for their own actions simply because they do not have the mental capability to govern their own actions.

However, this is just speculation. All we can do is remember that we serve a just, loving, and merciful God and we need give him our full trust that he will do the right thing. God's ways and decisions are always just.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I guess I should have said... after death.

All I meant was after a mentally handicapped person dies, God allows them to mature or they are matured in some fashion (which I don't know how or where) so that they can make a free choice as to where they want to spend eternity.

What exactly is a "free choice" here? This insinuates that all those who don't suffer from any affliction are consciously choosing to go to an eternity of hell if they don't happen to believe or accept certain things on face value. That is not a "choice" to go to such a place. This insistence that people *choose* hell is just plain ridiculous. It's just a 'black and white' mentality that would even venture such...lain:

 

[nicholsmom]

Jesus tells us about this concept in the lesson of the widow's mite - a poor marginalized person who gives her whole self, symbolically with the total of her meager treasure, to God (Luke 21:1-4). She gave all that she had, not more than she had. Taking some liberties with another verse of Scripture (that TomO provided), we can come to the same conclusion. Jesus states, "...From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked" (Luke 12:48). It would be logical to assume that one could only contribute to the extent of what they were given (their physical ability, mental capacity) and that this would be governed by the spirit.

Materialistic concerns are satisfied by an understanding of dualism.

It would be accurate to claim that if a woman lost her legs, God would not expect her to walk. Yet, if He did, He would give her legs.

I understand the concept, and I agree that great theological understanding is not expected of the mentally handicapped. My point to Knight and others concerning mental handicap was that this is a spectrum rather than black and white. My daughter has been measured at low-average intelligence; online friends from the Ds community report IQs ranging from 44 on up to Stevie's level. Then we have those who are on the autism spectrum, many of whom are totally non-verbal, who will have varying degrees of ability to comprehend the Gospel, not based on IQ so much as communication and socialization limitations. We need to be clear about the exact limitation so that we are all on the same page.

For instance, my daughter is mentally handicapped, but she gets the concept of God being the creator and that He loves us. She understands good and bad, right and wrong. I have no doubt that one day she will grasp the Gospel message and will be responsible for her answer. Another person, more profoundly retarded, will not.

As for TomO, I'm sure that he only meant that mental acrobatics are not expected from the mentally retarded. My response to him is more on the lines that he vastly oversimplified the issue to the degree that he said something that was totally incorrect - that the mentally handicapped have not been given much. He meant that they have not been given much mental capacity, but he said that they've not been given much of anything. I wonder though. Stevie offers as much to our family as any of my other children - is she an overachiever, giving a greater percentage than the other children; or are her gifts of a different sort, just as valuable and important to our family?

TomO did not intend insult - I'm sure of that - so my response to him was not irritation at him or his post, but rather an expression of frustration with having so little time to respond. Now I have been thorough, and I'm again out of time :mmph:

 

[Delmar]

I don't believe the mentally handicapped (or babies) are automatically saved. Nor do I believe they are automatically condemned. Neither of those options seem to fit within God's M.O.

:up:

 

[Nick M]

As for the mentally handicapped, I believe they are relieved of that infirmity immediately.

That is what I think. The same scenario we have is what they will have. When they die physicaly, they will no longer be contstrained by a brain that doesn't function correctly. The decision can be made at that point whether or not they want to spend eterinity with him.

Because just as granite and doogietalons do here, some will shake their fist at him and say send me away.

For example...

... if your god exists I deny him and abhor his actions so far on this species. That should pretty much give me a one way ticket...

 

[Persephone66]

What do you mean by "mentally handicapped?"
It seems to me from these posts, that Knight means incapable of understanding the gospel message (wow, that's pretty profound retardation, and excludes those with mild to moderate mr), but capable of having a relationship with God (would this exclude the profoundly autistic, and many of the moderately autistic?).

Wait what? I don't understand the gospel mainly because I do not know that your God or any other god exists. I have yet to see any proof.

And I thought I was only dyslexic. :hammer:

Does that mean I get a pass?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Does that mean I get a pass?

It's not a matter of getting a "pass". Instead it's a matter of where you honestly desire to go when you die. You can choose to live with God for eternity, or choose to live without Him.

God will allow every human that choice.

 

[Persephone66]

It's not a matter of getting a "pass". Instead it's a matter of where you honestly desire to go when you die. You can choose to live with God for eternity, or choose to live without Him.

God will allow every human that choice.

Interesting.

So, supposing you have it right, not that I agree, I'm just trying to understand, wouldn't that make everything I have done in my life, good or bad, rather meaningless and pointless? To the point where it wouldn't even matter if I had any faith at all?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Interesting.

So, supposing you have it right, not that I agree, I'm just trying to understand, wouldn't that make everything I have done in my life, good or bad, rather meaningless and pointless? To the point where it wouldn't even matter if I had any faith at all?

Hmmm... I hate to be dense but I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[Todah]

I do not think it is a matter of the head, but a matter of the heart!

Rom 10:10 I suspect that the fallen angels in heaven had as vastly superior intellect and knowledge of God, compared to me, as I do, to a person with Down's syndrome, or a little baby.

I have always believed that no one is going to be in "hell" based on a technicality, nor in heaven having slipped by God. But I also suspect that the latter would be more possible than the former.

I don't think anyone's "status" is going to surprise God, by any means. We are the ones who will be shocked and surprised by others, because we look on the outer and not the inner.

It is the nature of being God, or mere man.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Ch X, WCF:

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, (Rom. 8:30,Rom. 11:7, Eph. 1:10-11) by His word and Spirit, (2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Cor. 3:3,6) out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; (Rom. 8:2, Eph. 2:1-5, 2 Tim. 1:9-10) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, (Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 2:10,12, Eph. 1:17-18) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; (Ezek. 36:26) renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, (Ezek. 11:19, Phil. 2:13, Deut. 30:6, Ezek. 36:27) and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: (Eph. 1:19, John 6:44-45) yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace. (Cant. 1:4, Ps. 110:3, John 6:37, Rom. 6:16-18)

2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:4-5, Eph. 2:4-5, 8-9) who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:7, Eph. 2:5) he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (John 6:37, John 5:25)

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, (Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, John 3:3, 5, 1 John 5:12, Rom. 8:9) who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: (John 3:8) so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. (1 John 5:12, Acts 4:12)

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, (Matt. 22:14) and may have some common operations of the Spirit, (Matt. 7:22, Matt. 13:20-21, Heb. 6:4-5) yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: (John 6:64-66, John 8:24) much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6, Eph. 2:12, John 4:22, John 17:3) And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested. (2 John 9-11, 1 Cor. 16:22, Gal. 1:6-8)
​

See expositions of the above here:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_10.html

AMR

 

[Nathon Detroit]

10:3 Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10:4 Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

Uhg... Calvinism is horrifying.

Little babies elected to condemnation???

It's a cosmic crap-shoot for you guys.

 

[Todah]

The deeper question is do you think that you can fool God, or trick him with a dilemma. God how can you possibly save this person, the {mentally handicapped} or how can you possibly not save that person,{the aborted baby} let alone me????

It is best to just be humble and honest and say, God I know my actions and my thoughts, are not always good. You must know my heart. Please give me a believing heart, in Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

 

[Persephone66]

Hmmm... I hate to be dense but I'm not sure I understand your question.

I'll elaborate.

Let's say I were to die right after typing this.

I would die a bisexual, transgendered, atheist, public school substitute teacher, that while claiming to be vegetarian occaisionally enjoys shellfish. I don't consider that to be bad, but the Bible says that it is. I niether accept nor understand the gospel due to God's existence not being proven to me, therefore making me an unrepentant sinner and apparently now mentally handicapped. Am I correct on this?

If what you say is true, that God would give me a choice between Heaven and Hell when I die, at the least, I would finally have my proof. Am I right so far?

If I have understood that I do have a choice after I have died, would anything I have done at all in my lifetime, good or bad, make any difference at that point?

It seems to me it's like choosing cake or death. That's a pretty easy question.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Uhg... Calvinism is horrifying.

Little babies elected to condemnation???

It's a cosmic crap-shoot for you guys.

Sigh. A response within five minutes of a post containing information for further reading does not warrant more more than observation of the same. :squint:

Please do find the time to digest the expositions so linked. Hodge, for those that agree with him, will clearly show how your quick trigger finger response response is unwarranted.

AMR

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sigh. A response within five minutes of a post containing information for further reading does not warrant more more than observation of the same. :squint:

Please do find the time to digest the expositions so linked. Hodge, for those that agree with him, will clearly show how your quick trigger finger response response is unwarranted.

AMR

My response was accurate. You know my response was accurate because that's what you believe. Some are elected to hell and some to heaven, with Calvinism it's a cosmic crap-shoot.