toldailytopic: How did the universe come into existence?

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 23rd, 2011 10:10 AM

toldailytopic: How did the universe come into existence?

I think there are only 2 options:

Eternal matter & energy
or
Eternal God


I think those two options are on relatively equal footing and both requires a step of faith. At least with our current knowledge. And out of those two I find it easier to believe there is a god behind it.

 

[Psalmist]

toldailytopic: How did the universe come into existence?​

Jenisus 1:1-3
1 In the beginning God thought about creating the heavens and the earth. 2 Like an earth that was without form, void, with a darkness all around that was the committee. 3 Then on the sixth day the committee said, "Go ahead."

Now on a more serious note, I believe the Genesis account of creation, you know, what the Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."​

 

[WizardofOz]

I have read a lot of "big bang" responses......so, what caused the big bang? Either the universe is eternal or we're dealing with something supernatural and/or outside physical laws as we comprehend them.

There ya go.

Do you believe that energy can be created or destroyed by natural means?

I do not believe the physical universe to be "eternal", therefore I have concluded that a supernatural force or being created the temporal universe as we experience it.

Non sequiter

If the universe is not eternal, then where did the universe come to be? How is it a non-sequiter to conclude that a supernatural force or being created the natural universe?

Your non-sequiter is a non-sequiter

there are only 2 options:

Eternal matter & energy
or
Eternal God

those two options are on relatively equal footing and both requires a step of faith. At least with our current knowledge. And out of those two I find it easier to believe there is a god behind it.

:thumb:

 

[rexlunae]

All material things have a point of origin. That point is the necessarily uncaused cause and immaterial spirit: God.

One could assert, at least as safely, that all material things have a material origin. It's not only a more specific prediction, but it also fits more precisely the evidence that we have. The only problem is that it leaves us with the dilemma that we set out to solve, which demonstrates that the conclusion relies on special pleading, in the form of a quixotic "uncaused cause", which would be seen as a contradiction in normal causality, and artificially imposed ambiguity.

 

[WizardofOz]

“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name”

- Samuel Butler

 

[rexlunae]

Do any atheists believe that the universe is not eternal?

I think it's possible that it's not. I simply don't know.

 

[Quincy]

“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name”

- Samuel Butler

Haha yea,

energy........ the eternal substance transforming into expressions with egos for over 40,000 years!

or

god....... the eternal father who created his children, just 6,000 years ago!

 

[zoo22]

I don't think so. :idunno:

Matter and energy creating themselves out of nothingness is entirely implausible to me. Yet it's very plausible to imagine the universe being created by a force outside of the natural realm.

I think there's quite a bit that's completely incomprehensible to us, and that many implausible (and currently unimagined) things are actually very plausible. Also, I think there are many plausible things that are understood (even just barely) by a few that are beyond the realm of comprehension for most people. I wish I could see the world around me in mathematical formulas, but I simply can't. Related, I'm only able to relate ideas I can't really comprehend to the things I can, which is so limiting.

Maybe one day cats will be able to work out complex math problems, but currently that's simply not within their realm of comprehension. As far as I know, anyway. I feel that my own comprehension of the universe is along those lines.

That's not to say that striving to comprehend and further our knowledge and understanding isn't vastly important. Or even just to speculate.

As to the question, I'm inclined to believe along the lines of "science fiction" type science: circular time, etc. Crazy things that seem implausible. It's frustrating to me that I don't believe I'll ever know... But fun to (try to) think about.

EDIT:

I may never get there
Ever in this lifetime
But sooner or later
It's there I will go

 

[Selaphiel]

I simply don't know and I don't think the first cause argument is particularly strong, it most certainly is not a proof. My faith in God as ground of being and highest being is not motivated by some first cause argument.
I'm not even gonna pretend that I have any real understanding of the physics behind what was before the big bang.

 

[fool]

In Theism you are beginning with Someone creating the universe out of nothing.

So;
You can get something from nothing
And
Why did you start there?

With the big bang model which is accepted by many atheists, the universe is creating itself out of nothing. :dunce:

Not the theory as I understand it but whatever.
And
How is that really different than Someone creating it from nothing?

I'll take the model where the universe is created by an all powerful God, thank you.

Why?

I don't know if you are a steady state theorist or a big bang theorist

.
I'm a Construction Superintendent.
:idea:

I won't make any assumptions on your beliefs about origins.

Always a good idea.

 

[fool]

This thread need definitions.

Natural - all the material and energy in the universe.

Supernatural - anything that is not natural.

That doesn't make any sense to fool.

 

[fool]

What does the "theory" say?

You went to the Air Force Acadamy?

 

[fool]

Do any atheists believe that the universe is not eternal?

13.7 Billion years old (er sumsuch)

 

[fool]

Originally Posted by Inzl
Kett
You have to begin with
someone creating it.
Out of what?----fool. From within himsele, namely his power. He expressed that supernatural power in the form of energy and made that energy conform to a set of rules.

Why "super"?

 

[fool]

What fool is saying is that since science is not completely sure it totally understands all the laws of physics, there could be an unknown law that was at work in the beginning to cause something to come from nothing. Am i correct fool?

Not really no.

 

[kmoney]

13.7 Billion years old (er sumsuch)

You're a fool. What do you know.


What about before that? Do you think matter/energy has existed eternally? Even if it wasn't our universe? How do you define our universe?

 

[DavisBJ]

Do any atheists believe that the universe is not eternal?

I believe the age (up to now) of the universe is finite. But I do not have a firm idea on how long it will last.

 

[fool]

Do you believe that energy can be created or destroyed by natural means?

Can it?

If the universe is not eternal, then where did the universe come to be?

Where?
Well, Here.
We're in it.

How is it a non-sequiter to conclude that a supernatural force or being created the natural universe?

Because it doesn't follow.

 

[fool]

You're a fool. What do you know.


What about before that? Do you think matter/energy has existed eternally? Even if it wasn't our universe?

Don't know.

How do you define our universe?

Everything inside the event horizon of the Big Bang.
But I'm not dogmatic about it.

 

[kmoney]

Don't know.

I didn't ask you if you knew. :chuckle:

Everything inside the event horizon of the Big Bang.
But I'm not dogmatic about it.

Ok.