Aimiel
Well-known member
That's your opinion.
Well, I don't believe that you've put your trust in The Word of God, but rather in what you can twist It to say (or not say, as the case may be).
toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Well, you are wrong. And since you refuse to tell me which part of the Word of God you Think and Assume that I am ignoring, I have to conclude that I am not ignoring any of it.
I will tell you what parts of the Bible you are ignoring:
Ezekiel 18:4, The soul that sins shall die. You are ignoring that, because you think and assume that sins shall not die, but be tormented in hell forever.
Psalm 37:10 and 20, The wicked will perish, the wicked will be no more. You are ignoring that because you assume that a soul can't perish and will remain forever in hell being tormented.
Matthew 10:28, You are ignoring Christ's warning to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. You assume that the soul can't be destroyed in Gehenna.
Matthew 7:13, You are ignoring Christ's words that the way is wide that leads to destruction. You assume that the soul can't be destroyed.
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death. You ignore this scripture because you assume that the wages of sin is not death but eternal torment in hell instead of death.
There are many other scriptures you ignore in order to hold on to the tradition of men, eternal conscious torment, but these are enough for now.
Letsargue
New member
Revelation 20:1-3 KJV -----//--- ((( It doesn't ride a horse ))). - One can't be any more unlearned that THAT!!!!! --- Tell him to Read the Book!!!!
Paul -- 040913
Krsto
Well-known member
Hell IS the grave.
According to Strong's Concordance, hades, the Greek word often translated as hell, is defined as:
86 a[|dhj hades {hah'-dace}
Meaning: 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions 2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead 3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
So, let's replace the Greek word hades in the scriptures you quote with the most common meaning for the word:
Revelation 20:14
And death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.[/QUOTE]
Oh wait, nothing about hades in this scripture. Moving on.
So do this with every scripture with the Greek word hades and you will begin to understand what God is saying to us since the translators are too lazy to translate hades into something other than "hell", which really isn't translating at all, any more than translating the Greek word "baptizmo" into "baptize" when the Greek word means to immerse.
Like the word "baptize," "hell" has taken on a life of its own quite apart from the meaning in the original language.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Again: your opinion... which doesn't prove anything.
I don't ignore anything, although obviously you do.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, John brought new meaning to, "Baptize." He added repentance to what the Jews thought was what God wanted: phony religion. They rejected him, just like they rejected Jesus, Who taught what hell actually is.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell was made for the devil, but men find their way into it every day.
Which part of "Tell me what scripture you think I am ignoring" do you not understand?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Although I've posted them many times, you have yet to prove they don't describe ECT...
Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Thank you.
Let's talk about this verse then. Does it say that everyone who rejects God will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever? How does fit in with John 3:16, Romans 6:23 and other verses that talk about the wicked perishing? What sort of book is Revelation? What are it's characteristics? What group is said to be tormented? Does this say the torment lasts forever or something else (ie, the smoke)? Is language like this used elsewhere in the Bible? What happened to other cities where the smoke rises forever?
Aimiel
Well-known member
It does not. Only God knows whom is destined for the Lake of Fire. He decided before the foundation of the earth to keep certain things a mystery, in other words: not known to any man.
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
It fits quite nicely, when you don't presume to know what the 'second death' is, other than the fact that it involves being cast into the Lake of Fire. To presume that 'second death' means they will be no more is foolishness, since we see from Revelation 14 that the ones cast there will be tormented forever.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
A part of The Holy Scriptures, which is God's Word: Truth. Do you think it is a joke or simply metaphors? I believe that the spiritual truths represented by the symbols are far more true than the keyboard I'm typing on, which (like all other elements) is reserved unto fire against the day of judgment, and will be consumed at God's bidding.
John was allowed to see the truths represented by spiritual happenings that God revealed to him and he wrote what he was allowed to write. I believe that he saw much more than he was allowed to write about so that he would give us God's Truth un-varnished and plainly to get the bottom-line truths across to our fallen minds. I also believe he wrote what God wanted him to write and did an excellent job.
ALL those whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life.
It's pretty clear that the torment is eternal. If you want to deny this, you're free to do so.
Yes, and it's pretty clear that the Lake of Fire is real, will continue to torment souls for eternity and cannot be denied.
Their torment continues into eternity as well, whether you believe that is so or not.
As you can see, I haven't rejected Revelation 14:9-11 or any other verse as far as I know. I've carefully considered it in context, recognizing the genre. Revelation 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. If I understood the lake of fire to be eternal conscious torment, I would have to ignore the verse that says that it is the second death.
Krsto
Well-known member
You are doing the same thing: adding "new meaning" to the word hades never intended by Christ. Hell is the grave, and you have made it a place for eternal suffering for the unsaved. Jesus never taught or even implied that hades is anything other than the grave. The everlasting fire he spoke of was not hades, but what happens to the unsaved after they are buried 6 feet under in hades. They are DESTROYED. Jesus did speak of this destruction in other terms such as worms, an apt metaphor for decomposition.
The bible speaks of the eternal state of the unsaved as death, not eternal conscious torment:
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God in Christ Jesus is life eternal."
Krsto
Well-known member
You really need to be more careful in your exegesis, especially when you make God out to be a monster. It says the smoke of the torment rises forever, not their torment. All it's saying is there is this process going on, of destruction of souls, represented in symbols by smoke rising from something akin to a furnace, and the smoke rises for an indefinitely long period of time (using the literal definition of aionios which is incorrectly translated "forever") simply because the "fuel" of the furnace, those being dumped in it for destruction, continues for an indefinitely long period of time. As long as there is a supply of fuel, the furnace keeps burning, and the process which produces torment continues. Does that mean each person sent there for destruction experiences burning and torment for the whole time people are being put in this symbolic furnace? Absolutely not. Furnaces are made to burn things up that are put in them, or they wouldn't be very effective furnaces. It's called "eternal destruction" (in the Gospels) because the process of destruction goes on and on for as long as people are born and die without Christ.
Aimiel
Well-known member
No, you would have to simply drop your presumption that 'second death' means annihilation. You don't consider the other descriptions of torment to mean anything at all, other than symbolism? That's also presumption.
Aimiel
Well-known member
It says, "smoke of their torment," which means that the smoke, in order to ascend for ever and ever must still be in production, and it comes from torment, so that positively implies that such torment is eternal.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Were the torment to ever cease (annihilation) then said smoke would no longer be ascending from it.
Aimiel
Well-known member
You have to ignore WAY too many Scriptures to make that presumption.
Krsto
Well-known member
Either I'm not a very good communicator, or you're very dense, or both, because you are not comprehending what I am saying.
Let me explain by way of analogy. In my small, redneck logging town of Shelton, WA where I grew up before the EPA put a ban to such things we had the city dump a few blocks from my house that had a continual fire burning to get rid of the garbage that was dumped there every day. My brother and I, being the redneck kids that we were, used to love taking Dad's 22 pistol down there and try and shoot the rats. Those rats were HUGE. Anyway, back to the fire. The fires there went day and night because there was a constant supply of burnable garbage being dumped there. It was what in biblical terms would be called an "eternal fire", similar to the Olympic Flame which is also called an Eternal Fire, even in English. Yeah, we all know it's not actually eternal because it will end some day but we call it that anyway.
Back to the dump. The smoke from this dump rises forever and if any of those poor rats happened to get caught in a backdraft they would get burned too and experience a few moments of torment before dying. If there were a constant supply of rats getting caught in backdrafts then the smoke of their torment would rise forever. Does that mean any particular rat would experience torment forever?
Think about it.
The smoke will ascend as long as something is burning and something is burning as long as there is a supply of "fuel", which in this case are dead, unsaved people. People are dying ever second I think.
Krsto
Well-known member
Feel free to include those. I haven't ignored any to my knowledge, and I've had many discussions on this topic.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Were the rats being tormented forever, then you could say that the smoke from their torment rises forever. Since they were reduced to ash and their smoke dissipated after several minutes (hours even?) why should you think that the smoke of their torment ascended forever? You're just not thinking about what is said in Scripture. That's what's important... The Word of God... which states that smoke from torment continues to ascend. It doesn't say the fire goes out. It doesn't say that the torment ceases. It doesn't say that anyone goes 'poof' and disappears. It says smoke of torment for ever and ever.
When there are no more people making babies, there will be no more death. When God judges the dead, there will be no more dead. There will only be people in Heaven and people in torment of flames.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Why should fire be made everlasting if it isn't designed for torment of those put into it? Is it to be a torch of witness, down through the ages to show us what a GREAT guy Lucifer was? ... or Legion? I don't think so. God made the Lake of Fire for their torment, as Scripture states.