toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Banquet Theology.......
Banquet Theology.......
And we should be so surprised. That's your 'interpretation' of the bible.
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I've just hopped onto the thread, so haven't read it all, and could provide discourse on each, but a little snippet here will suffice for now
> My view on ECT (eternal conscious torment is most adequately supplied here, and elsewhere)
> Annihilationism or the final and eternal death of a soul (meaning the dis-integration of that entity as a living unit of consciousness operating having a distinct personality with immortality-potential) is more tenable on some grounds than ECT, but only IF 'God' allows the full powers of 'free will' to incur such a final death if an individual wills such and has done all to effect its own destruction, to which there will never be a 'resurrection'. Some higher teachings hold to a form of 'soul-death', which would be the full fruition of a soul's whole-hearted embrace of iniquity, ensuring at some culmination a total termination of existence. Yep, total wipe out. (this wont be as enjoyable as 'nirvana' though...which is more of a cosmic blow out - giggles )
> Universalism has its rationale upon the principle of the supremacy of Love and divine will ultimately triumphing, as all souls eventually re-turn to their true nature and source of being. The case for universalism or 'restoration of all things and beings' can be made from various scriptures, just like other 'isms' or opininated schools, for such are the manners of 'interpretation'.
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From a non-duality perspective we enjoy the below -
What a lovely place we find ourselves in.....as Awareness looks from a higher transcendental perspective at all these points of view, being quite free of any finality or conclusion as such are assumed based on various criteria or logic from finite minds conditioned by space and time. From this infinite view, its more of a smorgusboard actually.
What I do know NOW is that I AM (this knowledge is fundamental). I exist and this light of awareness at the heart of my recognition of existence is that I AM Presence. As far as I know....there is only this that is. The reality of Life that is unborn, undying and unchanging in its essence (Brahman), is always already present. I AM that. - all else is maya (illusion).
pj
Banquet Theology.......
And we should be so surprised. That's your 'interpretation' of the bible.
~*~*~
I've just hopped onto the thread, so haven't read it all, and could provide discourse on each, but a little snippet here will suffice for now
> My view on ECT (eternal conscious torment is most adequately supplied here, and elsewhere)
> Annihilationism or the final and eternal death of a soul (meaning the dis-integration of that entity as a living unit of consciousness operating having a distinct personality with immortality-potential) is more tenable on some grounds than ECT, but only IF 'God' allows the full powers of 'free will' to incur such a final death if an individual wills such and has done all to effect its own destruction, to which there will never be a 'resurrection'. Some higher teachings hold to a form of 'soul-death', which would be the full fruition of a soul's whole-hearted embrace of iniquity, ensuring at some culmination a total termination of existence. Yep, total wipe out. (this wont be as enjoyable as 'nirvana' though...which is more of a cosmic blow out - giggles )
> Universalism has its rationale upon the principle of the supremacy of Love and divine will ultimately triumphing, as all souls eventually re-turn to their true nature and source of being. The case for universalism or 'restoration of all things and beings' can be made from various scriptures, just like other 'isms' or opininated schools, for such are the manners of 'interpretation'.
~*~*~
From a non-duality perspective we enjoy the below -
What a lovely place we find ourselves in.....as Awareness looks from a higher transcendental perspective at all these points of view, being quite free of any finality or conclusion as such are assumed based on various criteria or logic from finite minds conditioned by space and time. From this infinite view, its more of a smorgusboard actually.
What I do know NOW is that I AM (this knowledge is fundamental). I exist and this light of awareness at the heart of my recognition of existence is that I AM Presence. As far as I know....there is only this that is. The reality of Life that is unborn, undying and unchanging in its essence (Brahman), is always already present. I AM that. - all else is maya (illusion).
pj
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Actually, the Bible "sez" that the wages of sin is death. So Eternal Conscious Torment is not a possibility.
I believe in Conditional Immortality. The condition is "Belief in the Son of God". Only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life. Those who do not inherit eternal life will perish on Judgment Day.
Cuz the Bible sez so.
this which is the only one that makes sense
good answer
the real question is which one would you want for those who don't make the grade?
also which one would God want?
and
please don't suggest it is not within His power
also which one would God want?
and
please don't suggest it is not within His power
Doormat
New member
Indeed. The alternatives are irrational.
What? Do you believe that the wages of sin is NOT death? If so, why?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
again, a matter of 'terms' and how we define them.....
again, a matter of 'terms' and how we define them.....
As we've covered, such depends on how we define 'death', which appears to be the pivotal point, along with our view of the soul's eternal state and potential for either continuity of life or disintegration. Those following can see the 'stalemate' here, as the traditional views of either just 'ECT' or 'soul-annihilation' may not wholly satisfy an intelligent conclusion, as other viewpoints and considerations may provide a more balanced and possible solution beyond that which we just dont know, and can only speculate
There may be a disintegration of individual existence or a personality dissolving (as a kind of 'soul-death'), but energy continues on to be transformed or remodified/re-created into new forms. Even so, a 'personality' still continues to exist in the eternal memory of God (akashic records), even if it is no longer a living conscious-entity. From our current viewpoint we can only speculate about a future-state of 'existence' or 'non-existence'. All we know NOW...is that we exist, and are conscious (we can assume we are more or less 'alive' in the Spirit or dead because of 'sin'...however we define such terms, but these are all 'relative' denominations).
pj
again, a matter of 'terms' and how we define them.....
As we've covered, such depends on how we define 'death', which appears to be the pivotal point, along with our view of the soul's eternal state and potential for either continuity of life or disintegration. Those following can see the 'stalemate' here, as the traditional views of either just 'ECT' or 'soul-annihilation' may not wholly satisfy an intelligent conclusion, as other viewpoints and considerations may provide a more balanced and possible solution beyond that which we just dont know, and can only speculate
There may be a disintegration of individual existence or a personality dissolving (as a kind of 'soul-death'), but energy continues on to be transformed or remodified/re-created into new forms. Even so, a 'personality' still continues to exist in the eternal memory of God (akashic records), even if it is no longer a living conscious-entity. From our current viewpoint we can only speculate about a future-state of 'existence' or 'non-existence'. All we know NOW...is that we exist, and are conscious (we can assume we are more or less 'alive' in the Spirit or dead because of 'sin'...however we define such terms, but these are all 'relative' denominations).
pj
As we've covered, such depends on how we define 'death', which appears to be the pivotal point, along with our view of the soul's eternal state and potential for either continuity of life or disintegration. Those following can see the 'stalemate' here, as the traditional views of either just 'ECT' or 'soul-annihilation' may not wholly satisfy an intelligent conclusion, as other viewpoints and considerations may provide a more balanced and possible solution beyond that which we just dont know, and can only speculate
There may be a disintegration of individual existence or a personality dissolving (as a kind of 'soul-death'), but energy continues on to be transformed or remodified/re-created into new forms. Even so, a 'personality' still continues to exist in the eternal memory of God (akashic records), even if it is no longer a living conscious-entity. From our current viewpoint we can only speculate about a future-state of 'existence' or 'non-existence'. All we know NOW...is that we exist, and are conscious (we can assume we are more or less 'alive' in the Spirit or dead because of 'sin'...however we define such terms, but these are all 'relative' denominations).
pj
Well, if one defines "death" as eternal life in Hell being tortured (which would be an odd thing to do), they still haven't solved their problem. Because the Bible also says that the wicked will be destroyed. So I guess it is also a matter of the definition of destroyed. So "destroyed" means "never destroyed, but kept alive in torment in Hell". But that doesn't end their problem either, because the Bible also says (Psalm 37:10) that the wicked will be no more. I guess "Will be no more" has to be redefined to mean "Will be forevermore in Hell being tortured". But that doesn't end their troubles. Because the Bible also says that what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the coming judgment. So the consumption of Sodom and Gomorrah has to be redefined or ignored in order for those who believe that the wages of sin is torture to be correct.
They start with the assumption that there is eternal torment in Hell, and then they have to change the meaning of every word in the Bible to support their assumption. AND THEN they usually get angry with us for not going along with their redefinitions. They say that we don't believe the Bible because we just believe what the Bible actually says. Weird.
Aimiel
Well-known member
In order to understand God's Word one has to take into account every single Word He says. Skipping parts leads to erroneous conclusions, as you so aptly demonstrate for us. The eternal torment of God's creation (demons, the Antichrist and the false prophet for example) as well as all liars, whoremongers, etc., is described in Scripture. Ignoring these truths is the only way that your annihilationism can be justified. Most of us simply choose not to ignore any of God's Holy Words.
[Jesus]“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[/Jesus]
-Matthew 25:44-46
The word translated as "punishment" here is used only one other time in the entire NT. That is in 1 John 4:18, which reads "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." Wherein the word is translated "torment."
The word is "κόλασις." It can mean "correction," as well as "penalty" or "punishment."
The word for "everlasting" is the same word as "eternal [life]," in the very same verse [Matthew 25:46]. That word is "αἰώνιος." Which means:
Jesus calls the fire "everlasting," when discussing being cast into it in Matthew 18:8. And again in Matthew 25:41 when discussing how He will tell those whom He does not know to depart from Him into said fire.
Annihilation and universalism are bunk.
-Matthew 25:44-46
The word translated as "punishment" here is used only one other time in the entire NT. That is in 1 John 4:18, which reads "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." Wherein the word is translated "torment."
The word is "κόλασις." It can mean "correction," as well as "penalty" or "punishment."
The word for "everlasting" is the same word as "eternal [life]," in the very same verse [Matthew 25:46]. That word is "αἰώνιος." Which means:
- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
- without beginning
- without end, never to cease, everlasting
Jesus calls the fire "everlasting," when discussing being cast into it in Matthew 18:8. And again in Matthew 25:41 when discussing how He will tell those whom He does not know to depart from Him into said fire.
Annihilation and universalism are bunk.
You have not yet shown me what part of God's Holy Words you think that I am ignoring. I've read through it completely and carefully and I don't believe that I am ignoring any of it. You are claiming that I have ignored portions of scripture but you can't show me what you think I have ignored. So am I just supposed to take your word for it?
If you understood Annihilationism, you would understand that we believe the punishment is eternal. The punishment is death, for the wages of sin is death, and that death is eternal so the punishment is eternal. Jesus said that body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. In order for Eternal Tormentism to be true, the soul would have to remain undestroyed forever in Gehenna while it is being tortured.
I know what you believe. I'm pointing out that the word used for "punishment" is also used for "torment." I am arguing that the translation is wrong, and that the torment is everlasting.
And I am disagreeing with your definition of death, as all throughout the Bible spiritual death is defined as separation from God, not a blinking out of existence. It is an eternal separation from God, which is what causes the torment.
If you can show me any passages where spiritual death is defined as annihilation or that souls can be destroyed, I will concede.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Of course not, but I have noticed that you also don't take God's Word for it, either:
- Matthew 3:12
- Matthew 18:8
- Matthew 25:46
- Mark 9:43
- Luke 3:17
- Luke 16:19-31
- 2 Thessalonians 1:9
- Jude 7
- Jude 12, 13
- Revelation 14:11
- Revelation 17
- Revelation 19:3
- Revelation 20:10
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Romans 9:14-25