toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

Traditio

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There were, yes. But instead of going back to that, we'll see if he answers my question to him in my last post.

Not gonna lie. I was gonna take the coward's way out and let Zippy take over. :noid:

Does God give those necessary graces to all people? I'm not talking about universal salvation here, which would be graces that are necessary and sufficient. I'm just talking about the necessary work on God's part that allows one to be saved. This is the question that I'm struggling to see a clear answer on your part to differentiate yourself from Calvinism.

These are very hard questions. Instead of dogmatically asserting a position, let's consider the following:

1. Is God (the Supreme Good) the cause of all created goods? Yes. Thus, all created goods, even whatever is good in man or what is good in what man does, is from God.

2. Can a man be saved apart from the grace and mercy of God? No. The reason for this is twofold. 1. Salvation is a supernatural end which exceeds the capacity of human nature, and 2. even were that not enough, man is even less suited to attain it than he naturally would be, given his fallen condition.

3. That said, is man a free agent, and must he cooperate in the divine plan? Again, the answer is yes. Man is a rational, living being.

From the above, it seems to follow that whatever good a man freely does, this good which we freely does at the same time 1. is the work of God's grace and 2. is at the same time the free cooperation of the free agent.

If you take away either, it seems as though this good would not be present. Take virtuous act A: but for the grace of God, I could not have done it. It is a good, and not only a good, but it's a good worked by man in possession of a fallen human nature. That said, my cooperation is also required. It is God's grace working in a human being (a rational being).

These seem to be rock solid premises. What conclusions do you draw, Kmo? :idunno:
 

SilenceInMotion

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The only reference to predestiny is in the half of scripture you left out concerning the vessels prepared before unto mercy.

Predetermination is a virtual certainty with an omnipotent being involved. You can see this predetermination all the way through Scripture., every time you see prophesy and ultimatums which suspiciously always pave way to the continuing revelation by God.

The fact of the matter is that you have no choice but to accept predestination.
 

bybee

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Predetermination is a virtual certainty with an omnipotent being involved. You can see this predetermination all the way through Scripture., every time you see prophesy and ultimatums which suspiciously always pave way to the continuing revelation by God.

The fact of the matter is that you have no choice but to accept predestination.

I don't believe in predestination.
 

surrender

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Then ultimately, you do not believe in an omnipotent being.
Perhaps your definition of power is not in alignment with God's definition of power. Do you think He must always stoop to Neanderathal power in order to influence His creatures? SilenceInMotion, what way in your every day behaviors do you display your belief in predestination? I'd be willing to guess you live your life as if you believe in free will.
 

zippy2006

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Not gonna lie. I was gonna take the coward's way out and let Zippy take over. :noid:

I want no part of this. :plain: :eek:

These are very hard questions. Instead of dogmatically asserting a position, let's consider the following:

1. Is God (the Supreme Good) the cause of all created goods? Yes. Thus, all created goods, even whatever is good in man or what is good in what man does, is from God.

2. Can a man be saved apart from the grace and mercy of God? No. The reason for this is twofold. 1. Salvation is a supernatural end which exceeds the capacity of human nature, and 2. even were that not enough, man is even less suited to attain it than he naturally would be, given his fallen condition.

3. That said, is man a free agent, and must he cooperate in the divine plan? Again, the answer is yes. Man is a rational, living being.

From the above, it seems to follow that whatever good a man freely does, this good which we freely does at the same time 1. is the work of God's grace and 2. is at the same time the free cooperation of the free agent.

If you take away either, it seems as though this good would not be present. Take virtuous act A: but for the grace of God, I could not have done it. It is a good, and not only a good, but it's a good worked by man in possession of a fallen human nature. That said, my cooperation is also required. It is God's grace working in a human being (a rational being).

These seem to be rock solid premises. What conclusions do you draw, Kmo? :idunno:

I agree.


There were, yes. But instead of going back to that, we'll see if he answers my question to him in my last post.

:e4e:

As noted, these are hard questions. Two "rock solid premises" result in a mysterious interaction between God's grace and man's will. It seems to me that Trad has emphasized one of those premises, but he always held the other and never actually fell into a Calvinistic position. I think you and TH read quite a bit of that in.

Can this mystery be solved to some extent? It seems to me that the modern transactional-type thinking which posits a zero-sum scenario between God's will and man's will is the culprit. A Thomistic philosophy which keeps in mind that fact that God actualizes all creatures and is even mysteriously present in man's will--even creating him to will the good in the first place--seems to be a good first step toward a better understanding. But these are deep waters. Maybe we should bring in AMR, Evo, and lots of ibuprofen. :eek: :chuckle:
 

Vaquero45

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Then ultimately, you do not believe in an omnipotent being.

You are the one questioning His power, by saying creating free creatures lessens it.

His power is no more diminished by our freedom than your "power" would be by allowing an ant farm to exist on your desk.
 

Vaquero45

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Except in fact he believes, with the vast majority of Christians, that God's omnipotence and human freedom can both exist.

He said if you don't believe in predestination you don't believe in an omnipotent God. I don't see what I missed? Not sure what you mean.
 

zippy2006

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He said if you don't believe in predestination you don't believe in an omnipotent God. I don't see what I missed? Not sure what you mean.

Traditional Christianity holds that predestination, God's omnipotence, and human freedom all co-exist because God exists outside of time. I think Boethius' Consolation was one of the first arguments for this. TOL's slant toward Open Theism has obscured this fact.

Regardless, when a philosophically traditional Christian says that predestination exists, or God is omnipotent, they are not excluding human freedom from the picture.
 

SilenceInMotion

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You are the one questioning His power, by saying creating free creatures lessens it.

His power is no more diminished by our freedom than your "power" would be by allowing an ant farm to exist on your desk.

I never said free will doesn't exist. However, I did say that predestination exists.

Why do you think that is? Have you never opened your mind to Scripture in a way that reveals fundamental truths such as free will and predestination exist in unison?
They are two sides of the same coin. It is essentially dualism at it's very essence and core.
 

surrender

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I never said free will doesn't exist. However, I did say that predestination exists.

Why do you think that is? Have you never opened your mind to Scripture in a way that reveals fundamental truths such as free will and predestination exist in unison?
They are two sides of the same coin. It is essentially dualism at it's very essence and core.
Well, sure, predestination is biblical. But not predestination of individual salvation.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Well, sure, predestination is biblical. But not predestination of individual salvation.

Individual salvation is predetermined as well.
There is no *limiting* predestination. If it exists, it exists wholly.

'Free willies' always try to put some kind of limitation to predestination, and it is quite frankly ridiculous.
 

surrender

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Individual salvation is predetermined as well.
Where do you believe Scripture teaches that, specifically?

There is no *limiting* predestination. If it exists, it exists wholly.
Why must it be all or nothing?

'Free willies' always try to put some kind of limitation to predestination, and it is quite frankly ridiculous.
Why? Why must it be all or nothing? I suppose I agree with you to the extent that once you become a part of the body of Christ, which is predestined for many things, then you, personally, become predestined.
 
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