toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Traditio]

As a Protestant, I do say "Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."
This is a small prayer of thanksgiving which Protestant men took away from women.
How can we not honor the wondrous maiden chosen by God to bear His Son?

Say that at least 50 times a day with great attention and devotion, and you'll be amazed at what could come from it. St. Louis Marie de Montfort tells us (in the aforementioned book) that, whenever we pray the Hail Mary well, we are giving a beautiful rose to Jesus and Mary. And whenever we pray the rosary, we are making crowns for ourselves which we will be able to wear in Heaven.

 

[zippy2006]

As a Protestant, I do say "Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."
This is a small prayer of thanksgiving which Protestant men took away from women.
How can we not honor the wondrous maiden chosen by God to bear His Son?

Indeed, we can all contemplate the immense role Mary was given and her unwavering faith and love of God. I think much can be gained by such contemplation (Luke 2:19). Lewis' care and devotion to Mary can be a helpeful roadmap to all Christians in this area.

That brightens my day bybee :e4e:

 

[Town Heretic]

It is not respect you require but equality,

No, I meant exactly what I said. Christians owe each other a greater degree of respect in the non salvific judgments that separate us in our general walk, that distinguish Catholic from Baptist and Baptist from Episcopalian. So if you abstain from the drinking of alcohol and dancing or find the Rosary beneficial then God bless you and leave off the fellow who does if you don't.

Asking Trad to pretend that his Catholicism is accidental or that the Rosary is not efficacious in any objective sense is an odd request.

I didn't. In fact I've congratulated him on finding the things that aid him in relation as a Christian. What I objected to was the insult contained in proposing that a different walk with Christ is an invitation to becoming reprobate. It was needless insult, divisive, condescending and unless he simply presumes that only Catholics are thoughtful and earnest in their faith, pointless.

Simply disagreeing with him rather than counter-asserting your own distinct viewpoint of Christian relativism would be much more respectful.

That's a very funny way of noting my willingness to encourage him in his walk while entreating him not to disparage my own as a part of the process. Christian relativism? I thought you only just finished finding fault in my absolutism. No matter.

God bless you zip. I won't continue to engage on the point, having said what I meant to and being aware of how poorly our discussions have tended to turn and end.

 

[kmoney]

TH actually addresses this at the end of post 76 where he errantly infers a doctrine of "Total Depravity" in Catholicism. There he fails to distinguish sufficient from efficacious grace on a Catholic view, and yet his point does hold against Calvinists.

That is, it is my opinion (according to the argument TH gave) that double predestination logically follows Calvinism itself. Saying you are a Calvinist who does not believe in double predestination results in a logical contradiction (i.e. God willing someone into Hell and God neglecting a totally depraved person result in the same deficiencies of such a concept of God).

I don't want to get too caught up on terminology like single and double predestination. I shouldn't have kept going back to it. What really matters is what Trad and Calvinists say happens.

Calvinists say that all men are totally depraved and God chooses to regenerate some, the elect, which are given salvation while the rest are stuck in depravity and never get to see salvation or heaven.

I see Trad saying essentially the same thing and am trying to see some sort of distinction between the 2 views. It seems as though Trad is saying that man is lost without some action on God's part and God doesn't take that action in all men.

It seems as though Townie has been getting as similar impression.

:e4e:

 

[kmoney]

And when you really think about it, this is an amazing and wonderful truth which should cause us great joy: if all graces necessary to our salvation come directly from God, if it is God who works every good in us, then we should never despair of gaining those graces. All we have to do is keep asking God for them in our prayers.

Does God give those necessary graces to all people? I'm not talking about universal salvation here, which would be graces that are necessary and sufficient. I'm just talking about the necessary work on God's part that allows one to be saved. This is the question that I'm struggling to see a clear answer on your part to differentiate yourself from Calvinism.

 

[beloved57]

Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

Most definitely, they are called the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. God made them for that Purpose Rom 9:20-22

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Most definitely, they are called the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. God made them for that Purpose Rom 9:20-22

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

If God made some men just for destruction without ability for salvation and then the others are made for salvation, then wouldn't it be just a cosmic lunacy to have a Savior to begin with?

Such a God couldnt be called loving or just in any manner.

 

[Breathe]

This is not congruent with a God of Love, so I don't believe it, I don't have a problem with not believing it because I believe that God is love.

Do you not believe that God knows everything that was, is and shall be?
I'm not trying to pick at you, bybee. Just trying to get a handle on the parameters of what you believe.

 

[bybee]

Do you not believe that God knows everything that was, is and shall be?
I'm not trying to pick at you, bybee. Just trying to get a handle on the parameters of what you believe.

I understand. I can say what other Open-Theists say that God knows all that there is to know. We have ability to make choices. How limited that ability is or what all of the parameters are, I don't know.
The Bible gives us information that leads to the idea of foreknowledge and the idea that we are free to choose.
Without the freedom to choose, I feel we would be as programmed robots.

 

[Breathe]

I understand. I can say what other Open-Theists say that God knows all that there is to know. We have ability to make choices. How limited that ability is or what all of the parameters are, I don't know.
The Bible gives us information that leads to the idea of foreknowledge and the idea that we are free to choose.
Without the freedom to choose, I feel we would be as programmed robots.

Thank you for your answer. I hope that you or someone else can explain something to me: if we all agree that God knows everything, then He knows who will be saved and who will not, right? So, since He already knows, how can there not be people born who are predestined for hell, since not everyoneone who is born will be saved?
I know someone will say, "God's foreknowledge is not the same as predestination", but I honesty don't see why not.

 

[beloved57]

angel

If God made some men just for destruction without ability for salvation and then the others are made for salvation,

Correct, those made for Salvation are called The Vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[bybee]

angel



Correct, those made for Salvation are called The Vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

To whom will He make His mercy known? Those not made for mercy? Why would they be interested?

 

[beloved57]

byb

To whom will He make His mercy known?

The Elect of God, The Vessels of Mercy !

 

[zippy2006]

It seems as though Trad is saying that man is lost without some action on God's part and God doesn't take that action in all men.

Did you have anything particular in mind? I read through a number of Trad's post and I didn't really see him say that? :idunno:

This may be helpful in clarifying the Catholic position.

 

[kmoney]

Did you have anything particular in mind? I read through a number of Trad's post and I didn't really see him say that? :idunno:

There were, yes. But instead of going back to that, we'll see if he answers my question to him in my last post.

:e4e:

 

[zippy2006]

I said "Simply disagreeing with him rather than counter-asserting your own distinct viewpoint of Christian relativism would be much more respectful."

No, I meant exactly what I said. Christians owe each other a greater degree of respect in the non salvific judgments that separate us in our general walk, that distinguish Catholic from Baptist and Baptist from Episcopalian. So if you abstain from the drinking of alcohol and dancing or find the Rosary beneficial then God bless you and leave off the fellow who does if you don't.


I didn't. In fact I've congratulated him on finding the things that aid him in relation as a Christian. What I objected to was the insult contained in proposing that a different walk with Christ is an invitation to becoming reprobate. It was needless insult, divisive, condescending and unless he simply presumes that only Catholics are thoughtful and earnest in their faith, pointless.


That's a very funny way of noting my willingness to encourage him in his walk while entreating him not to disparage my own as a part of the process. Christian relativism? I thought you only just finished finding fault in my absolutism. No matter.

God bless you zip. I won't continue to engage on the point, having said what I meant to and being aware of how poorly our discussions have tended to turn and end.

You commit the same error here. The issues aren't mutually accepted as non-salvific, hence "your own distinct viewpoint of Christian relativism." Asserting that they are isn't doing anyone any good, and is no different from Trad telling you that the Rosary is necessary though you clearly disagree. It was odd to me that you rebuked him for undermining your beliefs and then blatantly undermined his own. I guess you don't see it yet. :idunno:

 

[surrender]

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No.

 

[Lighthouse]

Limbo is debatable and not held by the Church as certain. It is merely something of theologians. In fact, I don't believe it is all that popular anymore. The reason it was brought as an idea was to try and understand a few 'kinks' in the aspects of justification.
Purgatory and Hell, however, is certain and indoctrinated.

Limbo and purgatory are both poppycock.

And what were you implying if you did not mean it was a 'happy place'? There is a pagan and then there is an orthodox version of Hades. In myth, it is simply the world of the dead. In Christianity, it is a place of damnation.

I said there was no mention of torture, I never said there was no torment.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Most definitely, they are called the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. God made them for that Purpose Rom 9:20-22

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

*
The only reference to predestiny is in the half of scripture you left out concerning the vessels prepared before unto mercy.

The lump of clay referred to was after the fall.

And people fit themselves for wrath, a murderer did not come out of his mother's womb with a tommygun in his hands, nor is the prostitute born wearing the make-up of Jezebel.

To sin successfully takes practice and steeling the mind and heart against God and conscience.

After the fall God would have been justified in destroying ALL mankind, but to avoid this [because He foreknew man would rebel] He so created man under the federal headship of Adam so that we all fall together, He predestined that some would be conformed to the image of His dear Son

WHY?

So that those so predestined might reach out in mercy to bless and lift the rest of mankind.

B57 will not judge this world, thank God, thank God nor do I have to, God will come and judge the living and the dead with perfect fairness.

 

[bybee]

*
The only reference to predestiny is in the half of scripture you left out concerning the vessels prepared before unto mercy.

The lump of clay referred to was after the fall.

And people fit themselves for wrath, a murderer did not come out of his mother's womb with a tommygun in his hands, nor is the prostitute born wearing the make-up of Jezebel.

To sin successfully takes practice and steeling the mind and heart against God and conscience.

After the fall God would have been justified in destroying ALL mankind, but to avoid this [because He foreknew man would rebel] He so created man under the federal headship of Adam so that we all fall together, He predestined that some would be conformed to the image of His dear Son

WHY?

So that those so predestined might reach out in mercy to bless and lift the rest of mankind.

B57 will not judge this world, thank God, thank God nor do I have to, God will come and judge the living and the dead with perfect fairness.

God is fair in His dealings with His creation.
What good is reaching out if those to whom we reach are predestined to separation from the Lord?
Is this not an exercise in futility?
We are not destined to waste our time, rather, we, all of us, are to make good use of the gift of life.