toldailytopic: Abortion Doctor charged with 8 counts of murder.

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Alate_One

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I find it amusing that liberals are all about winning hearts and minds when it comes to conservative issues, but they're all about passing legislation when it comes to their own.
You missed my point. What went on in this clinic was ALREADY ILLEGAL. Apparently enforcement sucks. We need to figure out how to properly enforce abortion laws, in general. Passing legislation doesn't do much if you can't enforce it.
 

aSeattleConserv

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And here is the reason I walked away from the Washington Pro Life rally in Olympia on Tuesday, and probably won't ever return again.

It wasn't so much that uninformed politicians and Christians (I could use the word "ignorant", but I'm being kind) praised the first recipient of the annual Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger Award (Martin Luther King Jr.) during their speeches; I'm used to uninformed Christians on TOL.

What bothered me even more was when democrats, the Party of Barack "I don't want my daughters punished with a baby" Obama, strayed from their anti-God message that they espouse daily (be it in the redistribution of wealth, homosexual unions, etc.) to take a one issue stance alongside people of God, and were applauded for it.

While I think it's just peachy keen that Knight and atheist Granite agree that it's wrong to murder an unborn baby, Granite, like the democrats that spoke at the rally, is missing the entire point.

I had to do some searching for the rights words to use, and finally found them in an article by Michale Matthews entitled "How to stop abortion":

Lessons from ‘Jane Roe’
The anniversary of Roe v. Wade (22 January 1973) is a troubling reminder that abortion is still legal in America. Sadly, after spending millions of dollars to reverse the court’s decision, the pro-life movement has had little success.
In June 2003, Christians rejoiced briefly when the US Congress enacted the first limits on Roe v. Wade: a ban on ‘partial-birth’ abortions. But that law is now tied up in court. Even if it survives litigation, the new law will save only a few hundred of the estimated 1.3 million babies killed each year in the United States.

What can the average Christian do?
While the courts are bent upon protecting the ‘right’ of mothers to kill their babies, they have stepped up their attacks on freedom of religion and religious expression—including the display of the Ten Commandments in public places. The US federal appeals court in San Francisco has even ruled against including the phrase ‘under God’ in the national pledge of allegiance.
The situation seems hopeless. Under such a hostile court system, what can Christians do?
Finding answers to fight abortion has always been a key theme of Answers in Genesis. Ken Ham, president of AiG–US, has been recognized by the pro-life movement for his anti-abortion efforts (see Ken Ham receives pro-life award!). But his proposal involves much more than dismissing a few Supreme Court justices.
Ken laid out the problem—and solution—back in 1987, in his documentary The Genesis Solution. In that film, nominated ‘best Christian film–documentary’ of the year, he made a prophetic claim: even if abortion laws are changed, the next generation will change them back if the nation continues to hold a non-biblical view of human origins.
The film noted that abortion is not the problem—it is just a symptom. The ultimate problem is that the culture as a whole, including many church-goers and church leaders, has exalted man’s beliefs above the authority of God’s Word. The prevailing view—that modern man ‘evolved’ over millions of years of senseless death and killing—has destroyed the historical basis for the dignity of human life, based in the history of Genesis, which says that man was made in the image of God.
Ultimately the only way to turn the tide against abortion and rampant immorality is to restore faith in God’s Word as the absolute authority in not just all matters of faith and practice, but everything else the Bible touches upon, such as history and science.

‘Jane Roe’ speaks out
Abortion is not a difficult moral issue … if you begin with Genesis.
Nor is it difficult to find the solution to abortion. The key is to turn the hearts of individuals back to the true history of life, found in Genesis.
The Creation magazine article ‘The baby killers’ identifies one staunch pro-abortionist who had a change of heart: Norma McCorvey, the ‘Jane Roe’ of Roe v. Wade. Her conversion caused shockwaves in the pro-abortion movement.
McCovery now runs a ministry called ‘Roe No More.’ In June 2003 she even dared to file a motion to re-open her case and overturn the 1973 ruling. Though her legal maneuver was unsuccessful, she continues working one-on-one to point individuals back to the truth—that God established the sanctity of life in Genesis.
Commenting on the 1992 court decision to remove ‘under God’ from the US pledge of allegiance, McCorvey shows why it is so important for society to go back to Genesis:
‘In many ways, this day reminds me of another dark day in our history, namely, January 22, 1973, when in a 7-2 decision, the Supreme Court decided that it was the constitutional right of women to abort their children in uteri. At the time, I believed that it was right—but I did not know what I was doing … . But by the power of God, by the power of His Word, I was able to free myself of the belief that we ourselves are gods, and that we alone can decide the fate of ourselves and our children. I am living proof that this is not true and will never be true.
‘If we allow decisions like Roe v. Wade and the recent San Francisco decision to go unnoticed, we too, will be responsible for the demise of America. … I return to Scripture as a source of strength: in Genesis, He writes that God is the Creator of all things from conception until natural death. He also instructed us to go forth and multiply, to teach our children, and to glorify His name, for it is through Him that we have eternal life.’1
The message of Genesis is still ‘quick and powerful’ (Hebrews 4:12). Like a mirror, the Word of God exposes the folly of following man’s way and the wisdom of following God’s way. One way leads to destruction, and the other leads to life. We are not gods, as the serpent told Eve, but the Creator is God, and His Word rules forever.
So the first priority of Christians, if they want to win the battle for the culture, is to restore confidence in God’s Word, including its absolute authority and impeccable accuracy from the very first verse.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0122abortion.asp
 

Granite

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I find it amusing that liberals are all about winning hearts and minds when it comes to conservative issues, but they're all about passing legislation when it comes to their own.

Abortion's not going to end without changing hearts and minds.
 

WizardofOz

New member
We're on page 3 and still no pro-choicers? Not that they would defend the action of this doctor but I was expecting at least one of them to draw their little line in the sand by now. :idunno:
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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I wonder if pro-choice advocates think a back alley is more sanitary.
Exactly. One of the most effective arguments from emotion the atheists have is that abortion made illegal will force women into "unsafe" or unsanitary environments. Looks like another atheist lie has met the cold hard face of reality. :plain:

I have to admit, this story really made me feel ill. But the thing is, what was done was *actually* illegal. How many more unregulated chambers of horror might there be?
When are you going to learn? What is legal is not synonymous with what is right. :nono:

We are not concerned with how many unregulated abortions are performed as compared to the fact that any abortions are performed.

How can governments get a handle on these kinds of operations? I think this needs to be addressed before more regulations on abortion are enacted.
Regulations make abortions legal. Abortion is always murder. Murder should never be legal.

But even more importantly, the hearts and minds of women everywhere need to be won over. That will save lives regardless of the state of the law.
:think: You could start with yours. :up:

We're on page 3 and still no pro-choicers? Not that they would defend the action of this doctor but I was expecting at least one of them to draw their little line in the sand by now. :idunno:

What are you talking about? Pro-choicers are practiced liars and in times of trouble will try to disguise themselves. But it will not be till they meet their maker that they will be silenced.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
When are you going to learn? What is legal is not synonymous with what is right. :nono:
No Kidding. That's not my point.

We are not concerned with how many unregulated abortions are performed as compared to the fact that any abortions are performed.

Regulations make abortions legal. Abortion is always murder. Murder should never be legal.
The outcome most of us want is *actually* stopping abortions. If making them illegal doesn't stop them (as quite a few scientific studies of other countries have shown) we need to develop a new tactic (or method of enforcement), regardless of the state of the law. This story is a case study of how we might fail to stop abortion even if it were illegal. It's all well and good to put people in jail or execute them after the fact, it doesn't bring back the lives that were lost. And it won't necessarily deter future criminals.

:think: You could start with yours. :up:
The U.S. voted Republicans into office. I'm willing to bet they don't introduce a single piece of legislation dealing with even reducing abortion. Prop 62 has no chance of passing. The law has zero prospect of changing in the next few years because both parties don't care to rock the boat.
 

aSeattleConserv

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Amazing - I noticed too.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "choice". There are plenty of people in here that "choooooose" to go against the laws of God when it comes to other sins. I guess most have a soft spot in their heart when it comes to this sort of thing.
Abortion1.gif
 

Dr.Watson

New member
We're on page 3 and still no pro-choicers?

What's to comment on? I will not defend late term abortions and I don't know of anyone else that would either. And thank goodness they are an extremely small minority of abortions done. And I'm also glad that they are illegal in most places.

Not that they would defend the action of this doctor but I was expecting at least one of them to draw their little line in the sand by now. :idunno:

You're just baiting for a fight aren't you? By draw a "little line in the sand" you mean make a reasoned argument only to be blasted by rhetoric and talking points from a forum full of right wing fanatics, right?
 

nicholsmom

New member
The outcome most of us want is *actually* stopping abortions. If making them illegal doesn't stop them (as quite a few scientific studies of other countries have shown) we need to develop a new tactic (or method of enforcement), regardless of the state of the law.
I think it's a good place to start and here's part of the reason why: things that are illegal are more obviously seen as "wrong" or "bad" by the population. Things that are legal are more of a gray area. So if we start by equating abortion with murder in the criminal justice system, then the issue will be much clearer - it's as bad as murder. When we label it as murder, the woman who is in desperate situation, full of hormones that muddle the mind, she will know that choosing abortion is the same as choosing murder - and murder of her own child at that. That is a great heart/mind changer all by itself. So I'd say the criminal justice system is a great start to the process.

The U.S. voted Republicans into office. I'm willing to bet they don't introduce a single piece of legislation dealing with even reducing abortion. Prop 62 has no chance of passing. The law has zero prospect of changing in the next few years because both parties don't care to rock the boat.

They are chicken-butts, sad to say. Term limits might put a bit of courage in their veins... or elsewhere...
 

WizardofOz

New member
What's to comment on? I will not defend late term abortions and I don't know of anyone else that would either. And thank goodness they are an extremely small minority of abortions done. And I'm also glad that they are illegal in most places.

Why should they be illegal?

You're just baiting for a fight aren't you? By draw a "little line in the sand" you mean make a reasoned argument only to be blasted by rhetoric and talking points from a forum full of right wing fanatics, right?

There are no well-reasoned arguments that cannot be countered with a much better one.

You're OK with some abortions but not others, so where are you willing to draw your line in the sand?
 

WizardofOz

New member
I guess it depends on what you mean by "choice". There are plenty of people in here that "choooooose" to go against the laws of God when it comes to other sins. I guess most have a soft spot in their heart when it comes to this sort of thing.
Abortion1.gif

If you've got something you wanna say, don't be cryptic about it. Granite's got it all wrong, kicking you around and whipping your "arguments" is a good time, which should be shared by all. :cheers:

Go prepare your cut and pastes. I'll be waiting. :juggle:
 

Dr.Watson

New member
Why should they be illegal?

Because at that stage, the child is viable outside the womb.

There are no well-reasoned arguments that cannot be countered with a much better one.

I agree that no arguments can be made that a bigot couldn't either ignore, or shout a talking point at. However, I have yet to hear someone give a reasoned approach from the anti-abortion side regarding appropriate actions for ectopic pregnancy (for starters).

You're OK with some abortions but not others, so where are you willing to draw your line in the sand?

This is not the thread to get into it. You want to discuss it, tell me where to discuss it with you.
 

WizardofOz

New member
I have yet to hear someone give a reasoned approach from the anti-abortion side regarding appropriate actions for ectopic pregnancy (for starters).

For starters? Again, where are you willing to draw the line? Would you support the criminalization of all abortion other than those for ectopic pregnancy?
 
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