Toddler shoots mother in Walmart...

interesting... went UP during the Clinton yrs

down during the Bush years..


hmmmm...

Except that almost exactly the same trend occurred in the UK, with opposite governments in power (crime rates went up during Conservative governments of the 90s and down during the Labour governments of the 00s).

Just goes to show, correlation doesn't mean causation.

On the other hand, This Charming Manc is (partly) right. According to a recent UK government report, the change in crime rates has most closely been linked to the rise and fall of heroin and to a lesser degree cocaine consumption.
 

resodko

BANNED
Banned
if i'm forced to exist in a society that is full of violent heroin and coke addicts, i believe i'll feel better armed with a handgun as we are here in america than with some stern words, as you wussies do :)
 
so do cars :idunno:

While this is a tragedy, it's about the victim not being a responsible gun owner and has nothing to do with guns.

Everyone knows that guns (like cars) are dangerous.

The main difference is that the primary purpose of guns is to shoot and kill (a person or an animal). A car can be dangerous, but generally not if it's used properly. A gun is only not dangerous if it's not being used at all.

In this day and age, guns are necessary insofar as a way for law abiding citizens to protect themselves as well as their family.

There is no evidence that gun ownership in anyway allows you to protect your family any more effectively than other means (such as having an effective legal system).



I have an idea. Why don't we count up the lives SAVED by guns (intruders, rapists, murderers) or that could have been saved had the victim had a gun

and compare that to the number of accidental shootings



+++

I think this would be very difficult to do for several reasons:

a) it's a counter factual analysis, which are notoriously unreliable as it's dependent on a lot of assumptions being made.
b) a person who had a gun might be more hasty in attributing their successful resistance to, say, a rapist through having a gun, partly because a person with a gun would likely be pro-guns in the first place, and partly because we like to feel that our actions give us control over our circumstances.
c) I don't think there are any reliable statistics on this.

It's far better to compare, say, whether the US has a lower rate of murder, rape, etc. than comparative countries with lower or similar gun ownership. You would expect that if your theory is true, a sufficient number of crimes would be prevented (either directly through the use of a firearm or indirectly through the possibility of someone having a gun being a deterrent) to be comparable. But this isn't the case
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Just throwing this out there for everybody...

If, as the cliche goes, an "armed society is a polite society," how polite do you consider ours to be?
 
if i'm forced to exist in a society that is full of violent heroin and coke addicts, i believe i'll feel better armed with a handgun as we are here in america than with some stern words, as you wussies do :)

...and that's why we live longer.

I've worked with enough heroin and coke addicts to know that they're not a significant enough threat to society to warrant gun ownership.
 
wow, this says it all

I always knew it was foolish to ban handguns and that that would mean only criminals have guns, but I had no idea the stats on this

you lefties care more about your leftie ideology than you do (SURPRISE SURPRISE)

about people



:singer:

Except the stats don't show this, at all.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The main difference is that the primary purpose of guns is to shoot and kill (a person or an animal). A car can be dangerous, but generally not if it's used properly. A gun is only not dangerous if it's not being used at all.


So don't use one ... see how easy that was?
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Not every state. New Hampshire, my stomping grounds, requires this:

a) ten bucks
b) which you pay when you fill out the application at the PD
c) which you get, after a brief background check, in 3-5 days

That's it. We pay for the permit on the spot, Tom. The operating assumption being that anyone applying for one sure doesn't have a record and is gonna get it anyway. Frankly, I'm not even sure if they check references for renewals--I've put down friends consistently on mine, and if they got a phone call from the chief, they never mentioned it.

Okay...I figured there would be a few here and there. I guess I should have said that it's the norm. except in certain states. :chuckle:
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I think that's the point. If Americans stopped using guns, or having them available to be used by a two year old, gun fatalities in the US would fall.

Uh huh ... because criminals always obey the law ...
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I didn't say they'd cease to exist. But they would almost certainly fall.

Well, if they break into someone's home who isn't (by your standards) in possession of a gun, who do you think will most likely *fall*?
 

This Charming Manc

Well-known member
What do you think happens in the rest of the world, when we have criminals and very limited private gun ownership?

Do we all get murdered in our beds at a greater rate than americans?

Or are we safer?

Well, if they break into someone's home who isn't (by your standards) in possession of a gun, who do you think will most likely *fall*?
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
What do you think happens in the rest of the world, when we have criminals and very limited private gun ownership?

Do we all get murdered in our beds at a greater rate than americans?

Or are we safer?

It comes down to America having a very different mentality, ethos, and history than much (if not the rest) of the world. We really need a sea change to get anything done here when it comes to firearms. Stop the sickness, stop the obsession, and start making sense. I'm not too optimistic, I'm afraid.
 

Morpheus

New member
The Kootenai County sheriff stated that there are approximately 16,000 carry permits in his county. It sounds more like the permits are considered a source of revenue handed out without much other consideration. Does anyone actually belief that there are 16,000 well-trained gun handlers in that county?
 
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