You're talking in circles, Jerry. You say we know that God knows that future because we know He knows the future. You say God is not bound by time, and we know that because God is not bound by time.
Well, it is all a closed system, so of course circular reasoning is valid, if not provable. Jerry is explaining one classic Arminian position of God's foreknowledge as provisional (
Molinism). It is circular, because it tries to preserve BOTH God's Exhaustive Foreknowledge and man's freewill.
It is a classic philosophy discussion as well. There is a real difficulty in reconciling fatalism with freedom and freewill. In a secular world, it is the same: If we are made by and at the mercies of the universe, it already dictated our limits thus we have no freedom, just some choices within a closed system and those too, predetermined. For example: It may seem that I can choose between chocolate and vanilla, but something already in my make-up prefers vanilla and I'm happy to be predetermined for vanilla because "that is what I like" (circular reasoning). As long as one is happy in his circle, he/she doesn't care so much about the fatalism/freedom dilemma. It is rather with undesirable consequences we are most concerned with fatalism vs. freewill. "Did I really make my own bed to lie in?"
It's nice of you to tell me all about the eternal state, but I get the feeling you have never experienced the eternal state, and therefore have very little knowledge of it to share, except from your other sources--and I don't think they are/were in any better position to describe how God experiences time/non-time.
But we do have good minds for grasping some of revelation. It is, imo, revelation places us imago deo among other of God's attributes. We can often but grasp a little of what He tells us, but He if we couldn't, there wouldn't be much point in telling us of these things. I suppose 'trust' is part of it, but we have to grasp even the smallest part of revelation with understanding, to appreciate it.
The bible is pretty clear how God interacts with us--and it is always in time. There don't seem to be any passages that say "God experiences everything in an eternal now." Nor are there any that explain what it would be like for us to experience things in an eternal now. Thus, as good as it may sound, there's just not any evidence of it, but there is plenty of the other kind of evidence (pretty much the whole bible).
Difficult to ascertain. I 'assume' you are right, but 'always?' Again, I assume that too is correct but for instance: Ephesians 1:4 1 Peter 1:20. I rather think time is a construct that aids us in attaining goals. It is a measure thus, from point A to point B. Titus 1:2 2 Timothy 1:9 (both literally 'before time started' (pro- chronos aiōnios). 2 Peter 3:8 for me, has to be taken literally.
In fact, your very statement above refutes your assertion. If God "looks into the future" and "once He sees a person believe, it suggests God is experiencing these things in a sequence, even if not in our time. Yet there can be no sequence for a person who is in an eternal now, can there?
Conundrum with all Omni's. Another example: Can God 'move' through the universe? Isn't all contained 'in' Him? If so, can He move through Himself? The answer to both is that God is not Physical. Time is a property of things moving. It is a measurement. Same with space. The universe has limits, granted God can make it incredibly large, to us. He yet, is beyond it. You intuitively know it. It is the same with time as well.
Now, with due deference to the thread topic, maybe you can explain the interactions of God with man as anthropomorphisms--where non-time is described as time and non-sequence is described as sequence, but it seems to show the scriptures to be a lie, if that's the case. But the burden of proof is on you and your buddies you quoted to give biblical evidence of it, instead of just repeating the philosophy as if it is already established, don't you think?
Thanks,
Derf
Not a lie. I 'can' put my finger in my fish bowl. I cannot travel across it but for relation, to feed them, clean it, etc. God 'cannot' be constrained by His creation else it'd be all there is, if you follow. We have to realize if God is bigger than the universe or is 'in' the universe. I cannot fit into my fish's tank. I 'can' interact with them in it. I 'think' I'm ichthysmorphic (fish language) in describing such to them, however. They are just not going to grasp I can live outside of water, for example. Their brains are too tiny. They can only know a few things. They would be correct that "Lon is wet" but would not know I'm not 'all' wet unless I told them, and they'd have to take it on faith without really knowing what 'not wet' means. We also have constraints on our abilities to see into what is eternal and infinite, but there are mathematical expressions that help us realize that truly, God is beyond our 3-D realm. We know, besides intuitively, also mathematically, that there are things beyond our universe and escape it. Time is a measurement of properties. For instance, without the sun, you'd have no way of marking time. Sure, you could watch a clock but 'succession' is a movement. A physical movement, even if a thing 'stands still' through time. It is still experiencing a physical property of its physical existence. Like a fish, that thinks 'wet' is all there is, his/her worldview is limited and wrong. In Him -Lon
