The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[lightninboy]

At what time were the 12 apostles born again? And how could a Gentile be saved before Messiah came?

During Messiah's lifetime, whenever any person actually came to believe that Jesus was the Messianic King, then that person was born again. Before the crucifixion, one did not need to believe that Christ died and rose again to be saved, as it had not yet occurred. But one had to believe that Jesus is the Messianic King and the God-Man. At some point, 11 of the 12 apostles came to believe just that. John came to believe it very early (as early as chapter one of his gospel), and the others a bit later. By the time of Matthew 16, all but one of the 12 disciples had been born again, all having come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. However, Judas never came to that conclusion and, therefore, was never saved. The way a Gentile could be saved before Yeshua's time was by putting his faith in the God of Israel as being the only God, and rejecting idolatry. It would not be necessary for a Gentile to convert to Judaism to be saved, but simply to put faith in the God of Israel as the only God and Savior while rejecting all idolatry and, then, living under the laws of the Noahic Covenant (Gen. 9:1-17).

The Noahic Covenant (Gen. 8:20—9:17) restates God’s authority over man and his duties as found in the Adamic Covenant (Gen. 9:1), and then it adds further responsibilities. This is a conditional covenant that was made between God and all mankind. These new items include the following: 1) Animosity between mankind and the animal kingdom (9:2). 2) Man should now eat animal flesh for food (9:3). 3) While eating flesh, the blood shall not be consumed, but drained (9:4). 4) Human life is so valuable that God requires the death of the one who murders another—capital punishment (9:5-6). 5) “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” (Gen. 9:1,7).The Noahic Covenant is made between God and all subsequent humanity, including the entire animal kingdom (9:8-10). In this covenant God promises to never destroy the world again through a flood (9:11). The sign that God will keep His promise is the rainbow set within a cloud (9:12-17). A rainbow is likely chosen because it is presented elsewhere as an item that surrounds the very throne room of God (Ezek. 1:28; Rev. 4:3) representing His person and presence. The Noahic Covenant is mentioned again specifically in Isaiah 54:9-10.

 

[lightninboy]

Ephesians 2:20.
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

God's plan of salvation has never changed. Man has always been reconciled to God by the forgiveness of sins through faith in Him. Some argue that the church started at Jesus' resurrection, and as an organized body it did. However, all through the Old Testament we find people of faith, as testified to in Hebrews, Chapter 11. The original patriarchs of the body of Christ are the apostles and the prophets (and other people of the faith in the Old Testament that are not considered prophets.)


OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS:
Members of the Church
Charles Haddon Spurgeon

“If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

“In view of the various dispensations under which it has pleased God to gather an elect and faithful people out of the world, has it not been reserved to the Christian dispensation to furnish the privileged company, which, in their unity, is called “the Church,” “the bride of Jesus,” “the Lamb’s wife?”
And, first of all, do not, we beseech you, be cajoled by any appeal to “God’s dispensational arrangements,” knowing that, however various they may have been, His covenant has endured the same through them all. It is a mere truism that Abel was not circumcised, that Noah did not observe the Passover, and Abraham was not baptized.
Difference of dispensation does not involve a difference of Covenant; and it is according to the Covenant of Grace that all spiritual blessings are bestowed. So far as dispensations reach they indicate degrees of knowledge, degrees of privilege, and variety in the ordinances of worship. The unity of the faith is not affected by these, as we are taught in the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews. The faithful of every age concur in looking for one city, and that city is identically the same with the New Jerusalem described in the Apocalypse as “a bride adorned for her husband.”
Surely, beloved brethren, you ought not to stumble at the anachronism of comprising Abraham, David and others, in the fellowship of the Church! If you can understand how we, who live under the present economy and, unlike those Jews, have never been circumcised, are nevertheless accounted the true circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and not in the flesh, you can have very little difficulty in perceiving that those Old Testament saints, who were participators in the faith of Christ’s death and resurrection, were verily baptized into Him according to the Spirit. Neither time nor circumcision founded the faith of Abraham. He rejoiced to see Messiah’s day; and he saw it and was glad. He believed in God who “Calleth those things that be not as though they were.” It were well for us to walk in the footsteps of the same faith.
“The Everlasting Covenant” as it was gradually but distinctly revealed, will do more than any arguments of ours to dissipate the mist of those strange doctrines we have referred to. That Covenant was declared to Noah; it was still further opened to Abraham and Isaac, it was confirmed to David; Isaiah rejoiced in its sure mercies, Jeremiah was privileged to relate many of its special provisions; and Paul avers in his epistle to the Hebrews that this is the Covenant under the provisions of which the precious blood of Christ was shed; it is the blood of the new Covenant. The priesthood of Christ is declared to be after the order of Melchizedec; it was, therefore, revealed in the days of Abraham. The word of the oath by which he was consecrated is communicated to us in the 110th Psalm, and so it was well known to David. In like manner, the gift of the Holy Spirit, though not bestowed till after the ascension of Christ, was explained by the Apostle Peter, on the day of Pentecost, to be the fulfillment of prophecy that was spoken before the Incarnation. The dispensational succession of events does not affect the Covenant. If it did, then Abraham could have no more interest in the Jewish than in the Christian economy, Canaan not having come into possession of his posterity till centuries after the patriarch’s sojourn on earth had terminated.
Had none of those believers any interest in the death of Christ, they must have died in their sins; but if they were interested in His death, why not in all the blessings that ensued? Is it pretended that although their welfare was deeply involved in the fact that “Jesus should die for that nation, and not for that nation only,” they are wittingly excluded from participating in the immediate consequence—“that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad?” According to the terms of the everlasting Covenant, and not according to the law, nor yet according to the tenor of any transient dispensations, the Old Testament saints were justified and accepted of God.
Matthew, eighth chapter, verse 11: “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven.” Mark the words “kingdom of heaven,” so often used by Christ to signify the Gospel dispensation. The next words make this construction more obvious: “But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Let us implore you to invert the question you have propounded to us. Those blessed patriarchs are undoubtedly heirs of the promises. Christ has acknowledged them. You need not ask whether they shall sit down with you, but your enquiry may well be whether you shall sit down with them in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[lightninboy]

The Old Testament Saints
Horatius Bonar, D.D.
1808-1889

God’s appeal to Israel in behalf of His laws and statutes are not to be evaded by us. They were addressed by a redeeming God to a redeemed people, that "knew the joyful sound" (Ps. 89:15), and had tasted the blessedness of pardon. These appeals were not meant to bring them into bondage. Obedience was liberty to them as to us. Israel stood upon the blood, just as we do. Abraham is Paul’s model of a justified man; and David his model of a man enjoying the blessedness of righteousness without works. The freest proclamations of pardon and life, in which we rejoice, are those addressed to Israel. Old Testament believers did not occupy a lower level than we do; nor did they walk in legal bondage because they had not yet seen the cross. They were "saints" as truly as we are (Ex. 19 :6; Lev. 11 :44, 19:2; Deut. 33 :3; Ps. 89:5-7); dwelt in, and filled with the Holy Spirit (Ex. 28:3, 31:3, 35:31; Num. 11:17, 25; 2 Sam. 23:2; Prov. 1:23; Isa. 44:3, 63:11; Micah 3:8; 2 Pet. 1:21); soils of God (Ex. 4:22, 23; Prov. 3:11; Jer. 31:9-20; Hosea 1:10; Heb. 12:5); God’s royal priesthood (Ex. 19 :6) ; God’s portion and inheritance (Deut. 32:9); heirs of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 8:11); strangers upon earth (1 Chron. 29:15; Ps. 39:12; Heb. 11:13); partakers of the first resurrection (Heb. 11:35) ; members of Christ’s body (Isa. 26:19); His spouse and bride (Ps. 45:10-14; Cant. 4:8; Isa. 54:5; 62:5); partakers of the heavenly calling (Heb. 11:10, 16). In short, there is nothing affirmed of New Testament saints that is not affirmed of Old Testament ones; and to say that because Israel as a nation had the earthly things, therefore the" saints in Israel had not the heavenly, is to overlook some of the clearest declarations of the Word. The mystery or secret which the apostle announces (Eph. 3:6), was not that a new thing called the church had commenced at Pentecost (there is no hint of such a thing), but that into the old and well-known body, THE CHURCH, so often spoken of in the Old Testament, and symbolized in the Song of Solomon as THE church without spot or wrinkle (Song 4:7), the Gentiles were to be introduced and set on the same level as the Old Testament members. "That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs (with the ancient saints), and of the same body" (with them), is the fair interpretation of the apostle’s language.

 

[patman]

Do you know that you are trying to defend MAD doctrine by attacking the book which refuted MAD doctrine, but which book was already written and accepted as Scripture -by those who matter- thousands of years before MAD doctrine was invented; and which book was quoted by the LORD Jesus and all the NT writers; and which many early Church fathers called inspired, and Scripture?
You really have egg on your face with your trying to make out as if the book couldn't possibly be credible -even though the LORD Jesus Christ gives credibility to it and all the NT writers give credibility to it and many early Church Fathers give credibility to it.

Yeah, egg on MY face. You are the one making your own Bible.

Your beloved Book does not align with scripture.

1 Enoch 10
1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.

Who cares if they told his dad too, what matters is Enoch witnessed this event that couldn't have happened because it was 500 years in the future.

Answer me this question:

What happened to the Nephilim according to 1 Enoch?

 

[lightninboy]

Is regeneration a primarily new covenant occurrence, or could Jews under the law also receive regeneration?
I believe it can be clearly demonstrated that regeneration is an occurrence in both the Old and New testaments. Human nature is the same under both and human beings cannot extract themselves, by way of self-effort, to follow YHWH. The law in itself does not produce the needed affection for God in the naturally uncircumcised hearts of the Israelites.
By no means were all Jews regenerate. Romans 9:6-13 speaks of this phenomena.
You are correct in assuming that Israel having the moral ability to seek God with their whole heart was a necessary result of their regeneration.
Sometimes in the Old Testament God even reveals behind the scenes how He enabled particular Jews to obey his Word when they were called to repent: In 2 Chronicles chapter 30, for example.
John 14:16-17. Jesus claims in this passage that the disciples KNOW the Spirit already because he is ABIDES WITH YOU [the disciples]... but notice His change up here -- AND WILL BE IN YOU. This is a future tense of an indwelling. Apparently the saints of the OT enjoyed regeneration but may not have enjoyed indwelling to the extent that we do. Regeneration and indwelling are not exactly the same the same for in regeneration the Spirit works to illumine our minds and renew our hearts prior to our faith in which He comes to indwell us. That pre-salvific action is not called indwelling. "WITH YOU" and "IN YOU" appear to demonstrate qualitative differences.
The Spirit has been active since creation. Deut 30:36 when YHWH is speaking to the Jews themselves, he says, "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."
This is clear indication that God's promise for regeneration was for the hearers of these words as well as their children, not just some eschatological promise ....
But the INDWELLING of the corporate body by the Spirit presupposes the resurrection. The Spirit helps us to obey Jesus commandments (vs. 15) where the righteous demands of the law are met for those who walk according to the Spirit. Of course the Jews are also part of Christ's body but they only experienced the promises in the form of types and shadows. Look at the hall of faith in Hebrews 11:39-40.
Joel 2:28 I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind.
So while all Jews were part of the physical covenant in their circumcision, not all were spiritually circumcised. While the work of the Spirit was active in the OT, what we have is founded of better promises, for everything which the OT pointed to has been fulfilled.

 

[lightninboy]

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. " (John 5:39, 40)
This is the foundational text. Unless your study, however diligent, leads you to see that all Scripture points to Him, your study is in vain. The importance of the Old Testament is that it testifies about Jesus. The meaning of the Old testament is not to be found within it but beyond it. How do you determine whether someone has understood the OT? By whether he embraces Jesus as the Messiah. If a person rejects Jesus he/she demonstrates ignorance of the OT. Jesus never condemns the Pharisee for taking Moses too seriously. They take him far less seriously than they should. He says, "If you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for He write of Me. But if you don't believe His writings, how will you believe My words. Your accuser is Moses." (John 5:46). So to understand Moses of to come to Christ when He is revealed. Abraham saw Jesus' day and was glad. Furthermore, "foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
The book of Hebrews even shows the hall of faith of many that were truly regenerate who actually did understand the shadows, the types and prophesies of the OT to be pointing to something beyond themselves to God's provision, when he would send the Messiah and pour out his Spirit on mankind, renewing their hearts that they would desire to obey, no longer having a stone-like uncircumcised heart. Their hopes were fixed on this. But the promise was delayed.
So the true Jews, according to the Scripture itself, did understand enough so that Jesus was perfectly right to rebuke them for not apprehending the time of his arrival and the associated promises of the Old Testament.
The need for regeneration is a commonplace of both Testaments. This was widely understood to be one of the promises of the messianic age. Jeremiah anticipates the new covenant when God will put His law in the minds of his people, and even write it on their hearts (Jer 31::31-34). A new heart and a new spirit is promised by God in Ezekiel (Ezk. 36:24-27). The prophet Joel looks forward to the time when God will not only pour out His Spirit on the Jews but Gentiles as well (Joel 2:28). The fulfillment of these promises is announced in John's Gospel (3:5; 14:26-27).
Jeremiah 24:7. Isaiah 32:15. Isaiah 44:3. Zechariah 13:1. Isa 12:3. Ezekiel 47:1. Amos 9:11-15.
You may find it interesting that traditionally the Jews took these promises very seriously and even had festivals centered around celebrating these promises. The Feast of Tabernacles (or booths), Jesus celebrated in Jerusalem in John 7:37-39.
Here again, as in John 3 & Ezekiel 36:25-27, water is closely associated with the Spirit. This metaphor is entirely appropriate for the setting of the Feast of Tabernacles since the culmination of the Feast was a water-pouring rite. A golden flagon was filled with water and carried by a group led by the High Priest to the temple. When approaching the water gate there would be three blasts of a trumpet-like instrument (sopar). At this time the Priests would sing Psalm 113-118 which was called the Hallel. When giving thanks to the Lord water was offered to God at morning sacrifice along with a drink offering of wine. These were poured into their separate bowls and then poured out before the Lord. These ceremonies at the Feast of Tabernacles were specifically related to the Lord's provision of water in the desert and an anticipation of the Lord pouring out the Spirit in the last days. This act of pouring was symbolic of the Messianic age where the Jews believed a stream would flow out of the sacred rock and spill out over the entire earth. This water rite appears to have gone back several hundred years (1 Sa 7:6).
When Jesus says, "if anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink He is, no doubt, referring to Isaiah 55:1.
The remnant of Israel is a remnant of one - Jesus Christ. All the promises are fulfilled in Him. The restoration of Israel is often spoken in the OT of in terms the "pouring" out of the Sprit. The Kingdom of God was inaugurated in Christ who is the source of living water which will be poured out on His covenant people. The restoration of Israel and the promise of the regeneration of all things is such a frequent concept in the prophets that Jesus was saying that Nicodemus was dull for not seeing it. Nicodemus should have known that YHWH promised a time when he would pour out His Spirit and circumcise their hearts to obey Him -- to be "born from above' as Jesus puts it.
All these promises of God in the OT which talk about God granting the Spirit so they would obey and follow his commands are not things hidden away. The New Testament may shed more light on the promises but from the passages I showed you along with MANY more, it should have been absolutely clear to the Jews of the Old Testament that God would give a new heart, and new affections for Himself in the coming Messianic age. How he would accomplish this may not have been totally clear to everyone. The real problem was with unbelief, not because there was not enough data. There were still many Jews (His Sheep) who immediately recognized who He was. The light may have been more dim in the Old Testament with regard to the new birth but it was certainly spoken of in some prominent places and the hope of which was incorporated into their festivals.
The Old Testament may be likened to a chamber richly furnished but dimly lighted. The introduction of light brings into it nothing which was not in it before but it brings out into clearer view much of what is in it but was only dimly or not at all perceived before.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

patman said;
1 Enoch 10
1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.

Who cares if they told his dad too, what matters is Enoch witnessed this event that couldn't have happened because it was 500 years in the future.

Answer me this question:

What happened to the Nephilim according to 1 Enoch?

God names his servants before they are born, and some of them are written in the OT and the NT for us to read about; just as Cyrus, "servant of YHWH" was named long before his birth, and John the Baptist, named before his conception -both of whose lives were told of by YHWH before they were conceived.
Daniel read the books of the prophets and seers and knew from them that the captivity of Israel to Babylon would end 75 years after it began, and that the Chaldeans and Persians would take over Babylon.
The LORD gave Nebuchadnazzer the dream vision of all the kingdoms of earth, as a multi-metal statue [made from the "metal mountains" which Enoch saw which will melt like wax at the Messiah's return to reign, which will rule earth but be destroyed by the "Stone cut out without hands".

YHWH come in second creation human being flesh was "named" from the beginning of creation, by the Father, and that name is "Israel" [Isaiah 49], from the dawn of creation [Psalm 110] -which was the "secret name" until He revealed it to the elect [Jacob got it as surname, His own name, as a sign of the adoption to come in His New Man name].

And the sign of a seer or prophet being sent by God is that all he foretells, or sees, comes to pass as he was inspired to declare. -Even Balaam got in on the seeing of the last days events in Numbers 24:15-25; declaring the end as YHWH gave it to him to see.

Originally Posted by thelaqachisnext

Do you know that you are trying to defend MAD doctrine by attacking the book which refuted MAD doctrine, but which book was already written and accepted as Scripture -by those who matter- thousands of years before MAD doctrine was invented; and which book was quoted by the LORD Jesus and all the NT writers; and which many early Church fathers called inspired, and Scripture?
You really have egg on your face with your trying to make out as if the book couldn't possibly be credible -even though the LORD Jesus Christ gives credibility to it and all the NT writers give credibility to it and many early Church Fathers give credibility to it.

You can read the condemnation of the nephillim in 1 Enoch @ http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM
the disembodied [slain] seed of the angels -nephillim- could not ascend into heaven and were not to be condemned to Sheol until the Son of Man/Son of God/Messiah/Hidden in God until His revealing [coming in flesh], returned to earth to set up His reign of Peace.

They were to roam earth as the evil/foul spirits called demons -but the women of them, disembodied, were to became sirens, on earth -you can see two of them in action in Zechariah 5, carrying the iniquity [the woman in a basket] to Shinar, where she will have a base set up for her there in the last days.

[Chapter 12]

1 Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was 2 hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones. 3 And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers 4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."'


[Chapter 15]

1 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous 2 man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

[Chapter 16]

1 From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement -thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be 2 consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated."

...

[the demons are the seed of the angels, and they are "their spirits", below who lead men astray and the women are the disembodied seed of the angels who were to become sirens]

[Chapter 19]
1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in 2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who 3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.

there's more -but you can go read it for yourself.
And after the flood there were more seed of angels born -those first chained ones were warnings to all angels who would be tempted to commit such fornication after that [Jude says], just as Sodom and Gommora were destroyed by fire and brimstone as a warning to all mankind who would be tempted to commit that kind of fornication after; but men and angels in rebellion continued to commit such fornications and will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire when sin is comsumated on the earth for the second time -says Enoch.

 

[patman]

God names his servants before they are born, and some of them are written in the OT and the NT for us to read about; just as Cyrus, "servant of YHWH" was named long before his birth, and John the Baptist, named before his conception -both of whose lives were told of by YHWH before they were conceived.

............

They were to roam earth as the evil/foul spirits called demons -but the women of them, disembodied, were to became sirens, on earth -you can see two of them in action in Zechariah 5, carrying the iniquity [the woman in a basket] to Shinar, where she will have a base set up for her there in the last days.

So they are the demons?

You do know the Bible says that the Devil and his minions are fallen angels... not man-angels? Right? Rev 12 pretty clear on that. Again, another adverse thing of the Book of Enoch against the Bible.

Your defense for Enoch knowing Noah is he saw he future Noah... You used examples from the bible that are very different from this... Noah in this passage of Enoch was alive and awaiting instructions.

So we have you claiming Abram knew all 70 languages because he was alive for the language change when the Bible says the languages and nations were established before he was born. But that is how Enoch survived the confusion of he languages... even though the Bible says the entire world had it's languages changed.

According to you Enoch's Giants became the evil spirits, but the word of God says they were fallen angels. Makes no mention of this being the organ of any evil spirit...

And last but not least, you claim the entire bible looks to Enoch, even Job. But not Job, he expressed his great desire that God would write a book. You didn't even know that, AND rebuked me over saying it happened.

You must really want this book to be true when the evidence is weighed against you in such a certain way.

Now, once again, I rebuke you for preaching from your own made up bible words that you cannot align with the scripture of truth. The confusion you cause the lost will be your problem, not mine.

You should seek Open Theism, MAD and the Bible, most of all the Bible, as the solution to understand it.

 

[Lighthouse]

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1254913&postcount=3

Here is an alternate understanding I wrote that is plausible, if not probable (click link).

James, not John, said faith without works is dead. He is talking about the type of saving faith we have that is evidenced by works (root vs fruit).

Paul emphasizes that faith, not legalistic works, saves us. He is not against works as fruit, not the root of salvation (Eph. 2:10).

I stand corrected. It was James. Other than that, you're wrong.

 

[Lighthouse]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

You're welcome.

I am sorry if you thought you were supposed to go back to the original posts. I summarized some old posts for patman earlier. I gave you the summary and the web page it came from so you could read it in the original context if you wanted to.

I realize that now.

Wasn’t it James who said that?

Yes.

You run away from James like godrulz runs away from Hebrews.
I already posted Acts 2 Dispensationalism interpretations of Hebrews and James that do not threaten our eternal life.
Before you take on a theology to protect you from James, first be sure James is actually the monster you think it is.

#196 The law did not provide eternal salvation at all but rather offered temporal purification for the Jews (Hebrews 9:13-14)
True or false?

Because the utter sinfulness of man makes him absolutely incapable of having any part in earning his own salvation (Romans 3:21-23, 10-18; Psalm 14:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Isaiah 64:6)
True or false?

If merit allows a man to glory in earning his salvation and this kind of glorying is wrong, then why is it wrong for us but all right for those in other dispensations?

If merit was wrong for Abraham (Romans 4:2), the great Old Testament saint who was called the friend of God (James 2:23), then why is it all right for other Old Testament saints?

Works-salvation makes God a debtor to man, something He can never be. (Romans 4:3-5; 11:35)
True or false?

Even under the law, men came to God ultimately by faith. Even though their faith might be expressed in works (as ours should be), it was still faith that got God's attention.
True or false?

With the exception of Judas, the apostles were certainly saved during the lifetime of Christ, though I would not speculate as to the exact time.
True or false?

Here is the original web page that post #196 came from. It is from an Acts 2 Dispensationalism Baptist minister.
http://www.learnthebible.org/reject_works_salvation.htm

None of this proves anything.

And before you give me that “That was then; this is now” line, remember that I refuted the “Mystery Dispensation of Grace” argument.

When and where?

God’s character never changes, and neither does sinful man’s, as post #259 said.

But the rules do.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe works weren’t really required for everlasting life before the cross?

They were required as evidence of faith. But only during the dispensation of the law.

The Kingdom was genuinely offered to Israel up to A.D. 70, I recently posted, but God knew what would happen. Remember that the Temple was predicted to be destroyed. There was no “Plan A” and “Plan B,” I recently posted.

When was the temple predicted to be destroyed? And what makes you think God wasn't just going to move to the dispensation of grace, eventually, if Israel hadn't rejected Christ? Maybe the "Plan B" was to move on to the Gentiles, if Israel rejected Christ, but the dispensation of grace had always been "Plan A.":think:

#259 To say that salvation is not the same in all ages is to say that man’s nature and needs have changed from age to age. This is impossible.
Some dispensationalists have said that Old Testament saints were not regenerated or indwelled by the Holy Spirit. But we must say, did not man’s fallen nature require such works of grace?
Whatever you need, the Old Testament saints needed as well. If you need the new birth, so did they. If you need the indwelling of the Spirit, so did they. The oneness of man’s fallen nature guarantees the oneness of salvation in all ages.

Nicodemus
Could not understand how You could
Truly free us
He struggled with the image
Of a grown man born again
We might have been good friends

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

What was Jesus talking about in John 3 if not that Old Testament people had to have everlasting life the same way we do?

Here is the web page that post #259 came from. I think I pretty much agree with Foundational Principles, The Salvation Arguments, and Answering the Difficult Questions, but you and I would both disagree with How to Know That You Are Saved.
http://davidsonpress.com/salvation/salvation1.htm

Were the first Christians Jews? You call those Jewish people on probation Christians?

You're getting tiresome.

 

[godrulz]

I stand corrected. It was James. Other than that, you're wrong.

I don't like being rrrronnggg. :noid:

I thought the link to my post was rather insightful. Can you give me an example from it why it is not plausible?

 

[Lighthouse]

I didn't even read the link. I've been over this with you enough to know that you are wrong.

 

[godrulz]

I didn't even read the link. I've been over this with you enough to know that you are wrong.

I am not sure you read this James vs Paul from non-Mid-Acts perspective. It is the majority view. If you are going to hold a minority position, you should not do it uncritically and you should at least understand the traditional view. A strong view will hold up to scrutiny. A weak view puts the head in the sand like an ostrich.

I think you would find the principles interesting and defensible, if you could only take off the Mid-Acts glasses for a moment.

 

[lightninboy]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

I stand corrected. It was James. Other than that, you're wrong.

godrulz was gracious enough to give an explanation of James and you didn’t even say why you think he is wrong.

None of this proves anything.

If none of this proves anything, you had nothing to lose by answering the questions.

When and where?

Somewhere in posts #945, #946, #947 and #950.

But the rules do.

You saying “That was then; this is now.”

They were required as evidence of faith. But only during the dispensation of the law.

Faith alone! Sola fide! And what about before the dispensation of the law?

When was the temple predicted to be destroyed? And what makes you think God wasn't just going to move to the dispensation of grace, eventually, if Israel hadn't rejected Christ? Maybe the "Plan B" was to move on to the Gentiles, if Israel rejected Christ, but the dispensation of grace had always been "Plan A."

Matthew 24-25. I guess that if Israel had accepted the Kingdom, they would have gone into the Millennium.

You're getting tiresome.

If none of this proves anything, you had nothing to lose by answering the questions.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am not sure you read this James vs Paul from non-Mid-Acts perspective. It is the majority view. If you are going to hold a minority position, you should not do it uncritically and you should at least understand the traditional view. A strong view will hold up to scrutiny. A weak view puts the head in the sand like an ostrich.

I think you would find the principles interesting and defensible, if you could only take off the Mid-Acts glasses for a moment.

I wasn't even Mid-Acts until about a year after I started posting on TOL. I was 23. I started going to church when I was 3. I had read James and Paul for almost twenty years before I came to the MAD position. It didn't make any sense to me, and I could not reconcile one with the other. Then I read The Plot. Problem solved.

 

[Lighthouse]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.


godrulz was gracious enough to give an explanation of James and you didn’t even say why you think he is wrong.


If none of this proves anything, you had nothing to lose by answering the questions.


Somewhere in posts #945, #946, #947 and #950.


You saying “That was then; this is now.”



Faith alone! Sola fide! And what about before the dispensation of the law?


Matthew 24-25. I guess that if Israel had accepted the Kingdom, they would have gone into the Millennium.


If none of this proves anything, you had nothing to lose by answering the questions.

I'm officially bored with you.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

So they are the demons?

You do know the Bible says that the Devil and his minions are fallen angels... not man-angels? Right? Rev 12 pretty clear on that. Again, another adverse thing of the Book of Enoch against the Bible.

Scripture teaches that the angel called Apollyon/Destruction [Shiva in Hindu], lets 200 million demon spirits out of Sheol during Tribulation, which one Ancient writing claims were bound there after the flood because Noah interceded for his descendents, who were being sorely afflicted by them [as the LORD gave them leave to do, when they were disembodied, as I pasted before, from Enoch].
Fallen angels have their own bodies and do not 'possess' men. the "devils", as foul spirits have no bodies since they were disembodied and will never be given a body again; fallen angels, on the other hand, will never get their own bodies taken from them, and they have no hope for redemption; Adam has hope for redemption in the reclothing in the New Man body made in the image of the New Man -because the Mercy of death of his body was given, so that he could be redeemed [whosoever will] in the New Man's image.
All in Adam rise in their own bodies, either without it being regenerated or being regenerated. those who were never born again in Christ will be cast body and soul into the everlasting fire -the second death- for their own sins [not for Father Adam's, as that is covered and we can have eternal Life in the Adoption].
.
Demons had bodies of lawlessly taken ' DNA, of Adam flesh, as offspring of the fallen "Spirits" and daughters born in "Adam"; seed of those angels who left their first habitation, heaven, and can never return.

The Scriptures teach the foul spirits who were never written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are offspring of the fallen angels -because you do not search and read the whole counsel of OT and NT, you are uninformed.

Your defense for Enoch knowing Noah is he saw he future Noah... You used examples from the bible that are very different from this... Noah in this passage of Enoch was alive and awaiting instructions.

No-I showed you contradicted yourself -but you have no ability to “see“ your own MAD contradictions.

So we have you claiming Abram knew all 70 languages because he was alive for the language change when the Bible says the languages and nations were established before he was born. But that is how Enoch survived the confusion of he languages... even though the Bible says the entire world had it's languages changed.

So you are saying there was more than one language before Babel? -I already pasted Scripture which shows one language was "mixed/mingled/confounded, at Babel for the rebellion; and you cannot make Noah to have been residing at Babel or taking part in the rebellion against God, nor were Shem, nor was Abram.

Where does the OT say Abram was not alive at the confusion of the tongues? -give me all the links to the dates that specifically point to the date of the confusion of language, please! -exactly written to pinpoint it or deducted with all correlating passages. -and I said to you that Ancient writings [not Enoch] teach us that Abram was learned in all 70 original languages, mingled from one, at Babel.-I did not know there were exactly 70 original ones until I read ancient writings [which was something I had tried to find out for years]....there are about 3,000 spoken today worldwide, it is said, and many have become 'dead' so called; but all languages are branches off one tree, and the ancients say the tree was Hebrew. -take that or leave it, I care not; but your arguments against Enoch are silly, as Jesus Christ quoted Enoch, took doctrine from Enoch, and so did all the NT writers -esp Paul- and so did many early Church 'fathers' so called -which you cannot refute.

[your next accusation, which was here, is moved and dealt with last, as it is too large to to answer here -lest you stop -or do not finish- reading this]

And last but not least, you claim the entire bible looks to Enoch, even Job. But not Job, he expressed his great desire that God would write a book. You didn't even know that, AND rebuked me over saying it happened.

You are being extremely untruthful about Job's statement in one place -and I pointed that out already;
Job desired that his adversary "byr" would have written a legal indictment against him. which he would then bind on his own shoulders proudly and approach him as a "Prince", to defend himself against any charges of wrongdoing; for Job is saying that there is no unrighteousness which could be written against him which could stand in a court of law.

Job taught God’s written Word; Job’s comforters knew God’s written Word, but they had no understanding to be a scribe of the “Wisdom of God” which they quoted from -And Job wanted an indictment against him written by his adversary, for him to approach a court of law with, as his own defense!!!!! -quite the opposite of your twisted untruthful claim against Job's statement! -you can go do a study for yourself here;
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible...omans%208&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ro&ng=8&ncc=8

And God's "Law" -not Moses' was read by Job and friends, and they strove to 'keep' His commands -written Words!

Job 22:22 Receive [laqach =take, go get, fetch, etc], I pray thee, the TORAH from his mouth, and lay up his words [that which He has spoken -not what is transmitted by men, orally, but what is written] in thine heart.

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: [when] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
Job 23:11 My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.
Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary [food].
And Job and friends had pens and ink, for writing, and iron for ingraving rock connected with lead;
Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
[laser writing was known by the ancients, BTW, and evidence is worldwide, carved on granite, which you can read about the evidence of, in "Dead Men's Secrets" by Jonathan Grey].

You should seek Open Theism, MAD and the Bible, most of all the Bible, as the solution to understand it.

OT and NT and 1 Enoch prove open Theism and MAD doctrine are false teachings.

This is too long, so I am answering your nephillim/angel misunderstanding in the next post.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

patman;
So they are the demons?

You do know the Bible says that the Devil and his minions are fallen angels... not man-angels? Right? Rev 12 pretty clear on that. Again, another adverse thing of the Book of Enoch against the Bible.

Where does the OT say the nephillim were fallen angels? -Are you trying to claim that Goliath was a fallen angel?
Goliath was born of the Anakim; Anakim were of the rephaim [the dead] the Rephaim were of Anak Anak was of the nephillim; the nephillim were of the Watchers and “daughters born in Adam“.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants [n@phiyl], the sons of Anak, [which come] of the giants [n@phiyl] : and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

2Sa 21:19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of] Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear [was] like a weaver's beam.

2Sa 21:20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of [great] stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.
2Sa 21:21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the brother of David slew him.
2Sa 21:22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07497

Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth 06240 0702 year 08141 came 0935 Chedorlaomer 03540, and the kings 04428 that [were] with him, and smote 05221 the Rephaims 07497 in Ashteroth Karnaim 06255, and the Zuzims 02104 in Ham 01990, and the Emims 0368 in Shaveh Kiriathaim 07741,

Gen 15:20 And the Hittites 02850, and the Perizzites 06522, and the Rephaims 07497,

Deu 2:11 Which 01992 also were accounted 02803 giants 07497, as the Anakims 06062; but the Moabites 04125 call 07121 them Emims 0368.

Deu 2:20 (That also was accounted 02803 a land 0776 of giants 07497: giants 07497 dwelt 03427 therein in old time 06440; and the Ammonites 05984 call 07121 them Zamzummims 02157;

Deu 3:11 For only Og 05747 king 04428 of Bashan 01316 remained 07604 of the remnant 03499 of [B/]giants[/B] 07497; behold, his bedstead 06210 [was] a bedstead 06210 of iron 01270; [is] it not 03808 in Rabbath 07237 of the children 01121 of Ammon 05983? nine 08672 cubits 0520 [was] the length 0753 thereof, and four 0702 cubits 0520 the breadth 07341 of it, after the cubit 0520 of a man 0376.

Deu 3:13 And the rest 03499 of Gilead 01568, and all Bashan 01316, [being] the kingdom 04467 of Og 05747, gave 05414 I unto the half 02677 tribe 07626 of Manasseh 04519; all the region 02256 of Argob 0709, with all Bashan 01316, which 01931 was called 07121 the land 0776 of giants 07497.

Jos 12:4 And the coast 01366 of Og 05747 king 04428 of Bashan 01316, [which was] of the remnant 03499 of the giants 07497, that dwelt 03427 at Ashtaroth 06252 and at Edrei 0154,

Jos 13:12 All the kingdom 04468 of Og 05747 in Bashan 01316, which reigned 04427 in Ashtaroth 06252 and in Edrei 0154, who remained 07604 of the remnant 03499 of the giants 07497: for these did Moses 04872 smite 05221 , and cast them out 03423 .

Jos 15:8 And the border 01366 went up 05927 by the valley 01516 of the son 01121 of Hinnom 02011 unto the south 05045 side 03802 of the Jebusite 02983; the same [is] Jerusalem 03389: and the border 01366 went up 05927 to the top 07218 of the mountain 02022 that [lieth] before 06440 the valley 01516 of Hinnom 02011 westward 03220, which [is] at the end 07097 of the valley 06010 of the giants 07497 northward 06828:

Jos 17:15 And Joshua 03091 answered 0559 them, If thou [be] a great 07227 people 05971, [then] get thee up 05927 to the wood 03293 [country], and cut down 01254 for thyself there in the land 0776 of the Perizzites 06522 and of the giants 07497, if mount 02022 Ephraim 0669 be too narrow 0213 for thee.

Jos 18:16 And the border 01366 came down 03381 to the end 07097 of the mountain 02022 that [lieth] before 06440 the valley 01516 of the son 01121 of Hinnom 02011, [and] which [is] in the valley 06010 of the giants 07497 on the north 06828, and descended 03381 to the valley 01516 of Hinnom 02011, to the side 03802 of Jebusi 02983 on the south 05045, and descended 03381 to Enrogel 05883,

2Sa 5:18 The Philistines 06430 also came 0935 and spread 05203 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.

2Sa 5:22 And the Philistines 06430 came up 05927 yet again 03254 , and spread 05203 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim07497.

2Sa 21:16 And Ishbibenob 03430, which [was] of the sons 03211 of the giant 07497, the weight 04948 of whose spear 07013 [weighed] three 07969 hundred 03967 [shekels] of brass 05178 in weight 04948, he being girded 02296 with a new 02319 [sword], thought 0559 to have slain 05221 David 01732.

2Sa 21:18 And it came to pass after this 0310, that there was again a battle 04421 with the Philistines 06430 at Gob 01359: then Sibbechai 05444 the Hushathite 02843 slew 05221 Saph 05593, which [was] of the sons 03211 of the giant 07497.

2Sa 21:20 And there was yet a battle 04421 in Gath 01661, where was a man 0376 of [great] stature 04067 04055, that had on every hand 03027 six 08337 fingers 0676, and on every foot 07272 six 08337 toes 0676, four 0702 and twenty 06242 in number 04557; and he also was born 03205 to the giant 07497.

2Sa 21:22 These four 0702 were born 03205 to the giant 07497 in Gath 01661, and fell 05307 by the hand 03027 of David 01732, and by the hand 03027 of his servants 05650.

2Sa 23:13 And three 07969 07970 of the thirty 07970 chief 07218 went down 03381 , and came 0935 to David 01732 in the harvest time 07105 unto the cave 04631 of Adullam 05725: and the troop 02416 of the Philistines 06430 pitched 02583 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.

1Ch 11:15 Now three 07969 of the thirty 07970 captains 07218 went down 03381 to the rock 06697 to David 01732, into the cave 04631 of Adullam 05725; and the host 04264 of the Philistines 06430 encamped 02583 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.

1Ch 14:9 And the Philistines 06430 came 0935 and spread 06584 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.

1Ch 20:4 And it came to pass after this 0310, that there arose 05975 war 04421 at Gezer 01507 with the Philistines 06430; at which time 0227 Sibbechai 05444 the Hushathite 02843 slew 05221 Sippai 05598, [that was] of the children 03211 of the giant 07497: and they were subdued 03665 .

1Ch 20:6 And yet again there was war 04421 at Gath 01661, where was a man 0376 of [great] stature 04060, whose fingers 0676 and toes 0676 [were] four 0702 and twenty 06242, six 08337 [on each hand], and six 08337 [on each foot]: and he also was the son 03205 of the giant 07497.

1Ch 20:8 These 0411 were born 03205 unto the [giant 07497 in Gath 01661; and they fell 05307 by the hand 03027 of David 01732, and by the hand 03027 of his servants 05650.

Isa 17:5 And it shall be as when the harvestman 07105 gathereth 0622 the corn 07054, and reapeth 07114 the ears 07641 with his arm 02220; and it shall be as he that gathereth 03950 ears 07641 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.

 

[lightninboy]

I'm officially bored with you.

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

Have I ever refused to at least try to answer tough questions about Acts 2 Dispensationalism or at least concede that I didn't know the answer?

Can you say that about yourself and Acts 9 Dispensationalism?

 

[Lighthouse]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

Have I ever refused to at least try to answer tough questions about Acts 2 Dispensationalism or at least concede that I didn't know the answer?

Can you say that about yourself and Acts 9 Dispensationalism?

Usually, when I don't know the answer, I defer to someone else on TOL who has the same stance, and knows more.