The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[lightninboy]

We can start discussin' any time now.

 

[godrulz]

We can start discussin' any time now.

Most people will not read a thesis. We are not defending dissertations, but most would respond to smaller bites of info.

 

[lightninboy]

If you won't read it, how can you refute it?

We aren't normal like "most people."

 

[godrulz]

If you won't read it, how can you refute it?

We aren't normal like "most people."

There are books written on the subject. It has been debated for centuries. I have given many posts on this subject over the months here. If I had to respond to every long post of every person here, this would be more than a full time job.

 

[Lighthouse]

Dear Lighthouse,

Yes, it is to show you that John 3:16 teaches eternal security.

I would like to compose another piece on the continuous tense of the words used for saving faith in John and Pauline verses.

Okay. Give me some time to read through the posts. I'll let you know when I'm done.

 

[Lighthouse]

Touchy, touchy...

Jesus baptized John the Baptist, did He not? He did not baptize other people, but His disciples carried out that act of discipleship for Him in obedience to Him.

When did Jesus baptize John? Where is it recorded?

 

[godrulz]

When did Jesus baptize John? Where is it recorded?

Apocrypha? Book of Mormon? Hezekiah? Koran?

Me bad. I must have a subconscious memory from a bad Hollywood movie.

I got my wires crossed.

John baptized Jesus, this I knew.

I retract my dumb statement and thank you for asking for evidence lest I believe a misconception.

Carry on...John's baptism was not identical to NT believer's baptism anyway.

The point was that Jesus affirmed baptism, yet He did not personally baptize people and left it to the disciples. Likewise, just because Paul did not personally baptize and left it to local church leaders, does not mean that he did not believe in it as grace truth (Acts 16 jailer and his personal baptism fit this view better than Mid-Acts assumptions).

Thx again...as I said, iron sharpens iron...

I don't suppose I could save face by lying and saying I was just trying to see if anyone would think it through and challenge what I knew to be wrong? Oh well, I tried.

I was wrong. I am sorry. Please don't ban me. :hammer:

 

[Bob Hill]

lightninboy wrote,

Notice that in Pauline verses also words for saving faith are said to be in the continuous state. How can you push aside John 3:16 without pushing aside Pauline verses?

Circumcision apostles did not have the same message as Paul. Paul was given a new gospel that never showed conditional salvation once a person believed.

When we look at John’s writings, he also seems to present conditions.
It says in John 8:30-38 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”

More later.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

The Circumcision writer on Hebrews also shows a lack of security.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

The Circumcision writer on Hebrews also shows a lack of security.

Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In Christ,
Bob Hill

At least you see this from this passage, unlike OSAS Calvinists who accept this book for this dispensation.

So, all I have to do is establish that Hebrews was written for Jewish Christians who were in the Age of Grace. Wish me luck.

 

[Bob Hill]

John 15:1-14 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

What does it mean “He takes away”? Their salvation was not secure in that dispensational setting.

and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

In contrast, we cannot lose our salvation in the Dispensation of Grace.

So, our response to this wonderful spiritual blessing of security should be like Paul’s response in Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height – 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all the generations, of the age of the ages. Amen.

We are in the dispensation of the grace of God. Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you.

According to Eph 1:3, we see that God wants to pour out spiritual blessings on us Christians.

We see that these blessings are accomplished by the Father. Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.”

But, it goes further. God chose us, corporately, in Christ. Eph 1:4 “in as much as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.”

2 Cor 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

What does “chose,” mean? This word in the Greek can be translated either as, I select, or I choose.
Therefore, the first thing we should know, is, Jesus Christ is the selected one.

Christ is the one in and by whom the Father accomplishes His blessings. Isaiah 42:1 prophesied: “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.” Christ was chosen to be the redeemer, not just for Israel, but also for Gentiles.

Paul’s ministry was brand new. God had not given it to anybody before He told Paul about the body of Christ, and that it was a mystery, hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul.

Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles - 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and mutual partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Paul's "son in the faith", Timothy, wrote Hebrews -for an incarcerated Believer -H-M-M?

Timothy, fellow companion and disciple of Paul, wrote the wonderful explanation of the Oracles of God in the book of Hebrews, which oracles were committed to the Jews as the patterns of the things created in the heavens before the foundation of the world, about the Person and work of the One who was to come, the LORD Jesus Christ, to redeem "Adamkind" in the body of created human flesh, as only created brother to Adam -and only living human being Son of God, whose name the Father called "Israel" -Isaiah 49.


And the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people [Israel is the Name of the Mighty God of earth -the Firstborn as to His second human being nature, who is the Living Spirit come in that prepared body of New Man flesh] are all about He who is the Solemn Word of God -His Oath- who was with God and was God; who was Hidden in God from the beginning, until His "Revealing" -which is His coming in second creation human being flesh "prepared as the New Man House for the Father's Glory to indwell".

MAD [Mid Acts dispensationalist] doctrine is not the doctrine of Scripture.

Now Paul's son in the faith, Timothy, was circumcised by Paul -after Timothy was a Believer!!!

But Paul said: "He that is called [by Christ to salvation] uncircumcised, let him not become circumcised, and he that is called circumcised [by Christ to salvation] let him not become uncircumcised.
But Paul circumcised Timothy -for fear of the Jews? -or because Timothy was of a Jewish mother?
Was Timothy considered 'of the circumcision' by Paul, because of having one Jewish parent;, and did Paul's circumcision of Timothy exclude Timothy from the "secret hidden gnostic never before heard of 'different' gospel" which MAD says paul preached?

 

[Bob Hill]

All the Mid-Acts believers that I know, believe this way.

Bob

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Paul's "son in the faith", Timothy, wrote Hebrews -for an incarcerated Believer -H-M-M?

Timothy, fellow companion and disciple of Paul, wrote the wonderful explanation of the Oracles of God in the book of Hebrews, which oracles were committed to the Jews as the patterns of the things created in the heavens before the foundation of the world, about the Person and work of the One who was to come, the LORD Jesus Christ, to redeem "Adamkind" in the body of created human flesh, as only created brother to Adam -and only living human being Son of God, whose name the Father called "Israel" -Isaiah 49.


And the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people [Israel is the Name of the Mighty God of earth -the Firstborn as to His second human being nature, who is the Living Spirit come in that prepared body of New Man flesh] are all about He who is the Solemn Word of God -His Oath- who was with God and was God; who was Hidden in God from the beginning, until His "Revealing" -which is His coming in second creation human being flesh "prepared as the New Man House for the Father's Glory to indwell".

MAD [Mid Acts dispensationalist] doctrine is not the doctrine of Scripture.

Now Paul's son in the faith, Timothy, was circumcised by Paul -after Timothy was a Believer!!!

But Paul said: "He that is called [by Christ to salvation] uncircumcised, let him not become circumcised, and he that is called circumcised [by Christ to salvation] let him not become uncircumcised.
But Paul circumcised Timothy -for fear of the Jews? -or because Timothy was of a Jewish mother?
Was Timothy considered 'of the circumcision' by Paul, because of having one Jewish parent;, and did Paul's circumcision of Timothy exclude Timothy from the "secret hidden gnostic never before heard of 'different' gospel" which MAD says paul preached?

MAD doctrine stumbles over the stumbling stone that the builders rejected.

The human being body of the second created man [which full human being nature was created for the Word of God to indwell forever], was prepared in the womb of the virgin as the
"Body of Christ"
and as the second human being created, He is the only brother to Adam, and therefore He is the only legal Kinsman with the right and the will and the power to do the duty of Kinsman, as outlined in Scripture, for earth, which was made as the dominion of Adam, and He is the One who came to do the duty of Kinsman for the dead brother's 'widow'; and as the second created and only living "Isyh of earth [husband], He donned the garments of Kinsman [Isaiah 59], to do the justice for earth that no man could do, to bring forth the sons of God from earth that the Father sought,for His glory to indwell as His humankind house, when He made "Adam, son of God" [Luke 3:38]; male and female [Genesis 5:2]; to multiply the sons of God as the 'living' seed [Malachi 2:15] created 'in' Adam.

 

[sentientsynth]

Hey laqach. :wave2:

 

[Bob Hill]

like post 832.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

MAD doctrine stumbles over the stumbling stone that the builders rejected.

The human being body of the second created man [which full human being nature was created for the Word of God to indwell forever], was prepared in the womb of the virgin as the
"Body of Christ"
and as the second human being created by the Father, He is the only brother to Adam, and therefore He is the only legal Kinsman with the right and the will and the power to do the duty of Kinsman, as outlined in Scripture, for earth; which was made to be the dominion of "Adam, son of God"; and He is the One who came to do the duty of Kinsman for the dead in spirit brother's 'widow'; and as the second created and only living "Isyh of earth [husband], He donned the garments of Kinsman [Isaiah 59], to do the justice for earth that no man could do, to bring forth the sons of God from earth that the Father sought,for His glory to indwell as His humankind house, when He made "Adam, son of God" [Luke 3:38]; male and female [Genesis 5:2]; to multiply the sons of God as the 'living' seed [Malachi 2:15] created 'in' Adam.

Paul, of course, was familiar with the Oracles as the Pattern of the heavenly Truth about the One Way Plan for redemption of Adam in the New Man -and comments upon them as such;
What advantage hath the Jew? -much every way!
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


And the author of Hebrews -who may well have been Paul, if not Apollos, but Timothy and Paul were in prison together and Timothy, Paul's own "circumcised son in the faith" [circumcised with his own hands] did "write the book, anyway; the author of Hebrews said this -through Timothy, who is the circumcised by Paul, son in the faith, of Paul;

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The "first principles" of the Oracles of God are the "ABC's" of the oracles, which, Timothy penned, must be learned before one can be a teacher in the Church of God.

MAD doctrine has never learned the "ABC's of the Oracles of God", which Paul said were the "Schoolmaster to "bring us to Christ"".

How do the Oracles "bring us to Christ"? -Easy to know if one learns the ABC's of the Living Oracles, which are the Only Place YHWH has revealed His One Way of Redemption for all Adamkind.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Hey laqach. :wave2:

Hello! -but get ready for real sword wielding

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Paul, of course, was familiar with the Oracles as the Pattern of the heavenly Truth about the One Way Plan for redemption of Adam in the New Man -and comments upon them as such;
What advantage hath the Jew? -much every way!
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


And the author of Hebrews -who may well have been Paul, if not Apollos, but Timothy and Paul were in prison together and Timothy, Paul's own "circumcised son in the faith" [circumcised with his own hands] did "write the book, anyway; the author of Hebrews said this -through Timothy, who is the circumcised by Paul, son in the faith, of Paul;

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The "first principles" of the Oracles of God are the "ABC's" of the oracles, which, Timothy penned, must be learned before one can be a teacher in the Church of God.

MAD doctrine has never learned the "ABC's of the Oracles of God", which Paul said were the "Schoolmaster to "bring us to Christ"".

How do the Oracles "bring us to Christ"? -Easy to know if one learns the ABC's of the Living Oracles, which are the Only Place YHWH has revealed His One Way of Redemption for all Adamkind.

Paul certainly was the "epitome of insecurity" as to his salvation, according to Bob Hill's definition.
Paul feared being a reprobate:

1Cr 9:27But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a reprobate.

Paul did not consider himself to have "arrived" -but strove towards the goal;

Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.Phl 3:12 ¶ Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.