The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[godrulz]

Israel is supposed to accept Christ as its Messiah during the Great Tribulation, so why would it need to offer sacrifices, etc., for salvation?

Israel had to do it to qualify as God's high priestly nation in the Old Testament, but why have to revert back to that in the Great Tribulation when it doesn't have to do it for salvation in the Church Age?

Animal sacrifices never saved anyone. They were an expression of faith and obedience. They were not efficacious, but pointed to the Sacrifice that was.

Circumcision was an outward expression of heart faith, just as baptism is an outward symbol of inward reality. Neither external ritual can save anyone.

Before we go to far, what verses are people basing these assumptions about the Tribulation? Rev. 4-19 is chronologically during the Tribulation. OT prophecies may have ancient fulfillment or a dual fulfillment in the future.

 

[Damian]

Dispensationalists come in a variety of views. Mid-Acts is a minority position. Luther was also wrong about the book of James (straw man gospel). My Romans vs James thread gives a more traditional understanding of James without resorting to Mid-Acts assumptions.

In typical fashion, your response is merely to evade the issue. Sorry, this won't do.

 

[godrulz]

In typical fashion, your response is merely to evade the issue. Sorry, this won't do.

I pointed you to a detailed response to your proof text. I also made a valid observation about Mid-Acts. Quit nitpicking and review my thread for clarity.

 

[Damian]

I pointed you to a detailed response to your proof text. I also made a valid observation about Mid-Acts. Quit nitpicking and review my thread for clarity.

"Mid-Acts is a minority" is a valid observation? That Martin Luther wanted to remove it from the canon of the New Testament speaks volumes in and of itself.

 

[godrulz]

"Mid-Acts is a minority" is a valid observation? That Martin Luther wanted to remove it from the canon of the New Testament speaks volumes in and of itself.

Perhaps Luther and Mid-Acts are wrong. If you study the life and teachings of Luther and Calvin you will eventually have some concern with their beliefs and practices. They were far from perfect. The minority position is not always wrong, but more times than not, it is not correct for a reason. Most do not agree with Luther's low view of James. Mid-Acts still has a high view of Scripture, but dispensationalizes away the book for Jewish Christians for a limited time.

Until you consider all of Scripture infallible and authoritative, you lack credibility to be picking and chosing from the Bible. Your subjective ideas are also not objective truth.

 

[lightninboy]

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER IF YOU LIKE!

1: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

5: Even so then at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Salvation is only by grace alone.

7: Israel hath sought righteousness by works and not by faith, but the election remnant obtained the righteousness of God through grace.

12: Israel is God's high priestly nation even in their rejecting Him, for everlasting life to the Gentiles comes out of Israel's Word.

25: The mystery is that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

In this case, it does not mean something which is mysterious or hard to understand. As used in Scripture, the word means that which was a secret of God until He chose to reveal it. The secret that God is revealing here is not that Gentiles would be saved, for there were Gentiles saved even during Old Testament times. The secret is rather that the blindness of Israel was both partial and temporary. The expression "the fullness of the Gentiles" is not the same as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24).

28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This refers to Israel still being God's chosen nation.

31: Believing Gentiles are now high priests to provoke the Jews to belief out of jealousy.

 

[lightninboy]

For Clete:

MAD seems to be an ill-fated attempt to justify grace in light of James and Hebrews passages and put conditional security upon certain Israelites.

Do you realize that your theology has racist elements?

 

[lightninboy]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only "reincarnated" anyone I know anything about is Jesus Christ and the two prophets that will set the whole world a blaze during the tribulation. To the best of my understanding the thousand year reign of Christ will have only mortals as its subjects. Now, after that, when the heavens are earth are replaced with the new Heaven and New Earth and the great city of Israel will descend out of Heaven onto the new Earth, there will be ONLY immortal glorified human beings in that eternal Earthly Kingdom.

The quote by Bob Hill was in post #235.

Because of this separation by God, there are 2 spheres where believers go when they die. For the circumcision and proselytes, they go into the kingdom promised to David. Christ will be the king. For the body of Christ of this dispensation, we have a heavenly hope. Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are extremely important, major differences between our dispensation of grace and the circumcision dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptism are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul.

 

[lightninboy]

Exactly!

And this will remain so UNTIL God returns to Israel and their covenant of law. But until then, you are absolutely correct.

But, Clete, you said:

There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is a central theme of Paul's ministry.

And one might be wrong, as I just got through explaining. There is no longer any such thing as a Jew (or Gentile) except in the genealogical/biological sense.

Acts 11:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6; Eph. 6:9; Col. 3:11, 25; 1 Peter 1:17.

If God has said that there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile in regards to requirements for salvation, that means that all will always be saved by grace through faith plus nothing as the Gentiles are now.

 

[lightninboy]

This question makes no sense and is unanswerable.

So before circumcision and the Law, salvation was by grace through faith plus nothing?

But, Clete, you said:

Paul was the first saved by grace through faith plus nothing. This occurred in Acts 9.

 

[lightninboy]

For Jerry Shugart:

Clete says that the essence of MAD is salvation by grace only in the Wonderful Dispensation of Grace and you're just a-whistlin' Dixie thinking that you are a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist.

Does that mean that you're really an Acts 2 Dispensationalist gracer just like me?

 

[lightninboy]

For Clete:

What about the Gospel According to John, John 3:16, John 6:47, John 5:24, you know if you've read this thread?

 

[lightninboy]

For Clete:

According to the Great Commission, the disciples were to take the Gospel to the Circumcision to all the Gentiles in the world?

 

[godrulz]

For Clete:

According to the Great Commission, the disciples were to take the Gospel to the Circumcision to all the Gentiles in the world?

The Great Commission has been fulfilled over the centuries by the Church. To relegate it to a limited ethnic group in the first century and at the end of time (Trib.) is an unusual view.

 

[Damian]

The Great Commission has been fulfilled over the centuries by the Church. To relegate it to a limited ethnic group in the first century and at the end of time (Trib.) is an unusual view.

This is the dispesationalist view. You are not familiar with it?

The Great Commission indicates that baptism is required for salvation.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

 

[godrulz]

This is the dispesationalist view. You are not familiar with it?

The Great Commission indicates that baptism is required for salvation.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

Most dispensationalists do not believe baptism was ever required for salvation. Mid-Acts misses the boat on this. I have given credible resolution for your supposed problem on other threads with Bob Hill.

Regeneration is never based on external ritual (baptismal regeneration is heretical). It follows repentant faith in Christ and His work, not getting wet.

 

[Damian]

Most dispensationalists do not believe baptism was ever required for salvation. Mid-Acts misses the boat on this. I have given credible resolution for your supposed problem on other threads with Bob Hill.

Regeneration is never based on external ritual (baptismal regeneration is heretical). It follows repentant faith in Christ and His work, not getting wet.

In typical fashion, you fail to address scriptural references.

The Great Commission indicates that baptism is required for salvation. It is important to note that these are the words of Jesus Christ. Are you implying that Jesus Christ is a heretic?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

 

[godrulz]

In typical fashion, you fail to address scriptural references.

The Great Commission indicates that baptism is required for salvation. It is important to note that these are the words of Jesus Christ. Are you implying that Jesus Christ is a heretic?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

I have given a detailed response several times to this verse.

It does not say that those who are not baptized will be damned. Faith vs unbelief are the conditions of salvation. Baptism was linked as an outward sign and step of obedience subsequent to regeneration by faith.

John 3:16 does not mention baptism. Neither do many other passages.

Your lack of respect for the Bible and blatant proof texting does not give you credibility to badger me because you cannot find the other times I did deal with the verse. I failed to respond to you today, but that does not mean I never responded.

The last part of Mark is also not in the best and oldest Greek MSS. This is a textual criticism problem. I still accept the passage as consistent with biblical truth, but I will not proof text one verse in a way that will contradict many more explicit texts.

The analogy of a carrier related to disease and the body. These types of people or philosophies can infect the church.

 

[Damian]

I have given a detailed response several times to this verse.

It does not say that those who are not baptized will be damned. Faith vs unbelief are the conditions of salvation. Baptism was linked as an outward sign and step of obedience subsequent to regeneration by faith.

Obviously, those who do not believe would never be baptized. Please do not insult my intelligence.

John 3:16 does not mention baptism. Neither do many other passages.

Your lack of respect for the Bible and blatant proof texting does not give you credibility to badger me because you cannot find the other times I did deal with the verse. I failed to respond to you today, but that does not mean I never responded.

I have credibility because I quote the scriptures.

The last part of Mark is also not in the best and oldest Greek MSS. This is a textual criticism problem. I still accept the passage as consistent with biblical truth, but I will not proof text one verse in a way that will contradict many more explicit texts.

If you believe the Bible has contradictions, then be honest and admit it. If not, then resolve the discrepancy. Don't evade the issue by accusing me of "proof texting."

The analogy of a carrier related to disease and the body. These types of people or philosophies can infect the church.

The truth is only considered offensive to those who harbor illusions.

 

[lightninboy]

Damian, if you are not a Oneness Pentecostal or a Church of Christ or maybe a Catholic, it is silly of you to say baptism is necessary for salvation. What are you?