ECT The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin

[nikolai_42]

Thanks for your well-thought-out reply.
So, all of the many dire warnings about losing salvation,
not entering the kingdom, not entering the New Jerusalem,
not being in the Book of Life, etc.
are aimed at those in the churches who are not born-again?

I would answer "yes". Just as the Lord didn't turn around right away and tell the masses who followed Him because He multiplied loaves and fishes and said "You are false believers" (instead telling them something that they cannot stomach and making THEM turn away from Him), He appears to tolerate those who are not fundamentally committed to Him to be considered part of His church - and in dealing with them He does so on the basis of their shortcomings and failures that are had because they, in fact, are NOT born again. He tells the disciples to let the wheat and the tares grow up together so that, in the pulling up of the tares, the actual wheat isn't dislodged. In other words, there is a time and a place for separation of the sheep and the goats, but in scripture the exhortations and rebukes are in service of that ultimate winnowing. They have the effect of making clear the difference between those who are and those who are not Christ's. He doesn't have to make the final judgment of a man's spiritual condition before the end - but they, in effect, are showing the fruits of those who are not (yet?) born again. He chastises them in order to bring them to that place of being born again.

At least that's how I see it.

EDIT : Thinking a bit more on this after posting, Jesus indication that man's condemnation would not come from His own lips but from their words (and actions) tells me that they (in essence) judge themselves to be unsaved. Thus, in John 5:45 He says that Moses judges the Pharisees - that He won't accuse them to the Father. And in Matthew 12:36-37, our judgment is based on our own words (and actions). Not that we make up the law, but they will be used against (or for) us on judgment day. So one of the effects of the words of false professors of faith is that they claim much but in the end it will be those claims that the Lord will raise in judgment against them because (as I believe) they were never saved. Like He said, His words will be "I NEVER knew you..."

 

[ZacharyB]

This is my understanding. The churches are full of those who profess faith, but function as hypocrites, deceiving themselves and others. The warnings are given to all the visible church, but effectual repentance and faith to heed the warnings, is granted by God only to His elect and invisible church of Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 10:37-39)

Perhaps we see the same thing?
I have been saying for many months now ...
The dire warnings in the NT are really only for God's elect
... because they are the only ones who will heed them!
(God's elect are the ones whom God elected before the foundation of the world.)

News Flash ...
OSAS NT verses and anti-OSAS NT verses MUST be reconciled
if one wishes to understand what the NT is saying about salvation.

And the #1 place to start with this is to understand:
"pisteou" (believe) in the NT must mean ...
believe, have faith, trust, and obey.

T. L. Osborne, world-famous Pentecostal evangelist ...
some years ago, undertook the challenge of researching this,
and determined that the bold above was the answer.

There has to be some degree of obedience involved in the process of salvation.

 

[ZacharyB]

What say you to such NT verses such as:
"all liars will be cast into the Lake of Fire"?

There is no such verse, at least not in the NKJV.

Revelation 21, NKJV
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Now, I have another question: Are you out of your mind?

 

[ZacharyB]

"Are the dire warnings in the NT aimed at unbelievers in the churches?"

I would answer "yes". Just as the Lord didn't turn around right away and tell the masses who followed Him because He multiplied loaves and fishes and said "You are false believers" (instead telling them something that they cannot stomach and making THEM turn away from Him), He appears to tolerate those who are not fundamentally committed to Him to be considered part of His church - and in dealing with them He does so on the basis of their shortcomings and failures that are had because they, in fact, are NOT born again. He tells the disciples to let the wheat and the tares grow up together so that, in the pulling up of the tares, the actual wheat isn't dislodged. In other words, there is a time and a place for separation of the sheep and the goats, but in scripture the exhortations and rebukes are in service of that ultimate winnowing. They have the effect of making clear the difference between those who are and those who are not Christ's. He doesn't have to make the final judgment of a man's spiritual condition before the end - but they, in effect, are showing the fruits of those who are not (yet?) born again. He chastises them in order to bring them to that place of being born again.

EDIT : Thinking a bit more on this after posting, Jesus indication that man's condemnation would not come from His own lips but from their words (and actions) tells me that they (in essence) judge themselves to be unsaved. Thus, in John 5:45 He says that Moses judges the Pharisees - that He won't accuse them to the Father. And in Matthew 12:36-37, our judgment is based on our own words (and actions). Not that we make up the law, but they will be used against (or for) us on judgment day. So one of the effects of the words of false professors of faith is that they claim much but in the end it will be those claims that the Lord will raise in judgment against them because (as I believe) they were never saved. Like He said, His words will be "I NEVER knew you..."

Please note that people were NOT born-again during Jesus' preaching
... because the Holy Spirit had not come yet.

And, IMO, no one can respond to God's warnings and get himself born again
... because God must give the needed seed of faith for one to be able to believe.

Jesus said to many, "I never knew you"
... because they did NOT do the will of His Father in heaven (Matt 7:21).

News Flash ...
There's a whole lot of stuff in the NT about doing the will of God.
And it is NOT just about believing Jesus and His gospel.
Of course, no one can do God's will unless he/she has been chosen, called, etc.

 

[Clete]

The term predestined is a mistranslation. The original word proorizo conveys a stronger and more steadfast meaning. To predetermine and so it proves to me that you have commented on something that you have no understanding of and obviously no experience of.

:rotfl:

The doctrine of predetermination is the only explanation to someone like myself. Who didn't seek salvation, didn't ask to be saved and hated even the word holy and yet received grace and truth.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the boudt and assume for now that you are not saved. Based on what you've said so far, you're worshiping a false god that does not exist and certainly is not represented in the bible.

"But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me". Romans 10:20

Referring to the gentiles, not to individual people! As always, the Calvinist ignores, not just the context of their proof texts but the whole rest of the bible and proceeds to read their doctrine into the text.

Pathetic!

Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.​

There's only about a hundred more such verses I can quote. Care to get into a proof texting contest? You will lose.

Only the heirs of promise can understand predetermination as being a Sovereign choice and say amen to the above.

The trap!

You have fallen for the trap!

How can you not see it?

You are likely beyond hope although while there is life there is hope but you have turned off your mind! The fact is that you don't understand it either! You know intuitively that this god your pretend to serve is an unjust figment of your imagination. You do know it. You'll deny it and even get angry at the suggestion but it won't change the fact that you do know it, down deep inside, you fully understand what justice is and that the god you pretend to serve cannot be just. The question is whether there is anything left inside you that cares. I've never met a Calvinist yet who spouted the self-stultifying nonsense contained in your last sentence who did. They all universally been convinced that to ignore one's mind and to believe Calvinist doctrine in spite of it's clear self-contradictory and inherently unjust nature is the very definition of faith and to hold to it in spite of your own conscience is the epitome of piousness and humility.

If this describes you, then you are indeed very likely past the point of no return. You have dismanteled with your own hands the only tool you have with which to detect the truth.

Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Revelation 21, NKJV
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Now, I have another question: Are you out of your mind?

Some substantive response you gave there!

What are you even doing here, just trying to waste time?


And no, I'm not out of my mind! Is that what you think any time someone comes up with a form of argument you've never been exposed to before and can't figure out how to refute, that they're out of their mind?

“I am not mad, but speak the words of truth and reason." - The Apostle Paul - Acts 26:25


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Perhaps we see the same thing?


T. L. Osborne, world-famous Pentecostal evangelist ...
some years ago, undertook the challenge of researching this,
and determined that the bold above was the answer.

There has to be some degree of obedience involved in the process of salvation.

Yes, of course. However, obedience is a result of salvation; not ever the cause of salvation nor is retaining salvation contingent upon obedience.

God's pardoning grace is the cause of salvation, and holy obedience is the effect.

Anyone who professes to be justified (pardoned by the grace of God), but unrepentantly continues to practice disobedience, proves to be a hypocrite and never regenerated to new spiritual life by the Holy Spirit, at all. I John 2:18-21

 

[Nang]

The trap!

You have fallen for the trap!

How can you not see it?

You are likely beyond hope although while there is life there is hope but you have turned off your mind! The fact is that you don't understand it either! You know intuitively that this god your pretend to serve is an unjust figment of your imagination. You do know it. You'll deny it and even get angry at the suggestion but it won't change the fact that you do know it, down deep inside, you fully understand what justice is and that the god you pretend to serve cannot be just. The question is whether there is anything left inside you that cares. I've never met a Calvinist yet who spouted the self-stultifying nonsense contained in your last sentence who did. They all universally been convinced that to ignore one's mind and to believe Calvinist doctrine in spite of it's clear self-contradictory and inherently unjust nature is the very definition of faith and to hold to it in spite of your own conscience is the epitome of piousness and humility.

If this describes you, then you are indeed very likely past the point of no return. You have dismanteled with your own hands the only tool you have with which to detect the truth.

Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Please read these words of Nikolai again and repent of your idle and hateful words against others!

"Thinking a bit more on this after posting, Jesus indication that man's condemnation would not come from His own lips but from their words (and actions) tells me that they (in essence) judge themselves to be unsaved. Thus, in John 5:45 He says that Moses judges the Pharisees - that He won't accuse them to the Father. And in Matthew 12:36-37, our judgment is based on our own words (and actions). Not that we make up the law, but they will be used against (or for) us on judgment day. So one of the effects of the words of false professors of faith is that they claim much but in the end it will be those claims that the Lord will raise in judgment against them because (as I believe) they were never saved. Like He said, His words will be "I NEVER knew you..."

 

[Clete]

OSAS NT verses and anti-OSAS NT verses MUST be reconciled
if one wishes to understand what the NT is saying about salvation.

Ever notice that one set is written by the Apostle Paul who was given the Gospel of Grace by direct divine revelation and that the other set of verses were all written by Peter, James and John (as well as the whole rest of the bible including all of the Old Testament and the Gospels)?

Can Lose Salvation:

• Ezekiel 18:24-28
  24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
  25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
  
• Matthew 24:13
  13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
  
• Hebrews 6:4,6
  4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
  6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
  
• 2 Peter 2:20-22
  20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
  
• See also....
  
• 1 Chr. 28:7
• 2 Chr. 15:2; 24:20
• Ps. 51:11
• Mat. 6:12 & 15; 10:22; 18:23-35; 25:1-13
• Mark 13:13
• John 15:2 & 6; 17:3
• 1 John 2:3
• Hebrews 3:14; 4:1; 6:4-15; 10:26-30 & 36-38
• James 2:9-13; 5:19-20
• 2 Peter 1:10; 3:17
• Revelation 2:5 & 10-11; 3:1-3 & 5

Cannot Lose Salvation...

• Romans 8:35, 37-39
  35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
  
  37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
  
• Galatians 2:20
  20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
  
• Ephesians 1:13-14
  13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
  
• 2 Timothy 1:12
  12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
  
• See also...
  
• 1 Cor. 5:5
• Gal. 5:22-23
• Eph. 2:6; 4:30
• Phil. 1:6
• Col. 3:3 & 13
• 2 Tim. 1:12

That is not an exhaustive list but is sufficient to demonstrate the point that it is Paul who taught that you cannot lose your salvation and only him. And all you have to understand is that his audience is a different audience than that of Peter, James and John (Gal. 2:7-9) and countless tensions disappear without the need apply some different technique to each of these verses where you redefine a word here and spiritualize a concept there. All of these verses mean exactly what they say and there is no need to reconcile them. Just read them and believe what they say understanding who is speaking and who is being spoken too! Simple!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Please read these words of Nikolai again and repent of your idle and hateful words against others!

I thought you believed that every word I say was predestined by God.

I can only repent if God makes me do so. I cannot do otherwise. I can't even want to do otherwise unless God makes me.

So says your own doctrine.

"Thinking a bit more on this after posting, Jesus indication that man's condemnation would not come from His own lips but from their words (and actions) tells me that they (in essence) judge themselves to be unsaved.

Can they do so without God having predestined them to do so?

Thus, in John 5:45 He says that Moses judges the Pharisees - that He won't accuse them to the Father. And in Matthew 12:36-37, our judgment is based on our own words (and actions).

Who is it that determines our words and actions? Us or God? Which word or action has been performed by anyone that God did not predestine before time began? Just name one word, one thought, one single solitary action that anyone had said, thought or done that God Himself did not predetermine would happen at its appointed time before He created a single photon of light. Just one Nang! Can you point to even one?

NOPE!

Not that we make up the law, but they will be used against (or for) us on judgment day. So one of the effects of the words of false professors of faith is that they claim much but in the end it will be those claims that the Lord will raise in judgment against them because (as I believe) they were never saved.

And, according to your doctrine they could never have been saved at all and so who cares?! Every enemy of yours, inculding me, was predestined by God to be so and there's not a thing any of us can do to change it no matter what. (According to your doctrine, that is.)

Like He said, His words will be "I NEVER knew you..."

"Nor could I ever have known you because I predestined that you would hate Me and that I would throw you into the Lake of Fire before you took your first breath."

So says the unjust idle that Nang worships.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

I thought you believed that every word I say was predestined by God.

I can only repent if God makes me do so. I cannot do otherwise. I can't even want to do otherwise unless God makes me.

So says your own doctrine.


Can they do so without God having predestined them to do so?


Who is it that determines our words and actions? Us or God? Which word or action has been performed by anyone that God did not predestine before time began? Just name one word, one thought, one single solitary action that anyone had said, thought or done that God Himself did not predetermine would happen at its appointed time before He created a single photon of light. Just one Nang! Can you point to even one?

NOPE!


And, according to your doctrine they could never have been saved at all and so who cares?! Every enemy of yours, inculding me, was predestined by God to be so and there's not a thing any of us can do to change it no matter what. (According to your doctrine, that is.)


"Nor could I ever have known you because I predestined that you would hate Me and that I would throw you into the Lake of Fire before you took your first breath."

So says the unjust idle that Nang worships.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Reformers not only believe God predetermines all things, and that faith and repentance come by His power and grace, but we also believe God created all men in His image and therefore all men are morally responsible and accountable to obey His Word and Will.

You make a farce of the Reformed View, citing nothing but a Fatalistic philosophy.

You do so in ignorance and at your own peril.

 

[Clete]

Reformers not only believe God predetermines all things, and that faith and repentance come by His power and grace, but we also believe God created all men in His image and therefore all men are morally responsible and accountable to obey His Word and Will.

I know what they believe.

They ignore the obvious contradiction and think that's what faith is.

You make a farce of the Reformed View, citing nothing but a Fatalistic philosophy.

Which part did I get wrong, Nang?

What did I say that you deny believing in?

Where is the word, thought or deed that wasn't predetermined to happen in advance by the will of God Himself before He even began to create anything?

WHERE?

You do so in ignorance and at your own peril.

If I am ingorant it is because God predestined that I be and I can neither do anything about it nor even desire to do so unless He has predestined that I should, right?

So why are you complaining? I'm doing the will of your god!

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

I wonder if you've ever even thought through how you would ever be able to tell which of us was included in "the whole train of the ungodly"?

Not that it would matter for you because you've openly decided that your doctrine doesn't have to be consistent with itself and so why would you ever think to ask such a question?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

I know what they believe.

No, you do not. Every post you put up misrepresents the Reformed Faith. Even when you quote Calvin, you do so with faulty presupposition, that skews your conclusions as to his teaching.

They ignore the obvious contradiction and think that's what faith is.

There is no contradiction. God is Sovereign, and has created mankind with a secondary moral agency (will). Man is accountable to submit his human will to the sovereign will and word of God.

Where is the word, thought or deed that was predetermined to happen in advance by the will of God Himself before He even began to create anything?

You deny God the attribute of omniscience, so you cannot grasp the exhaustive foreknowledge of God.

If I am ingorant it is because God predestined that I be and I can neither do anything about it nor even desire to do so unless He has predestined that I should, right?

Such is mere "fatalism" which omits human accountability from all cause and effect.

 

[nikolai_42]

Please note that people were NOT born-again during Jesus' preaching
... because the Holy Spirit had not come yet.

And, IMO, no one can respond to God's warnings and get himself born again
... because God must give the needed seed of faith for one to be able to believe.

Jesus said this of the Pharisees :

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:39-40

And He said this to Mary at Lazarus' tomb :

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25-26

So the fact that the Spirit had not yet been given isn't, as I see it, a barrier to being born again. I'm not saying a man can make himself born again, but that to those with the word of God abiding in them (as Jesus said in John 5 to the Pharisees), the words He speaks are life. To those that are perishing, they are death. He need not say (before the judgment) "You are a sheep" or "You are a goat" because the effect of His words is to reveal what is going to live and what is going to die. That the manner of the giving of that life had not yet been made clear is merely a technicality. Whether they were outwardly seen as born again of the Spirit or not is an outward showing of that which was already an inward reality (for those who were around before the Spirit was given). So I agree there is nothing any man can do to make themselves that child of God (nor to prepare themselves for it).

An interesting addition...to the seven churches was said "To him that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...". Those that heard (or would hear) were Christ's sheep. Those that didn't (or wouldn't) were (and are) not. The act of obedience bears out the reality - it doesn't create it.

Jesus said to many, "I never knew you"
... because they did NOT do the will of His Father in heaven (Matt 7:21).

And what did He say was doing the work of God? (Hint : John 6:28-29)

News Flash ...
There's a whole lot of stuff in the NT about doing the will of God.
And it is NOT just about believing Jesus and His gospel.
Of course, no one can do God's will unless he/she has been chosen, called, etc.

At the foundation of it all, it IS about believing Jesus.

 

[Clete]

No, you do not. Every post you put up misrepresents the Reformed Faith.

Then tell me which I got wrong, Nang!

Which doctrine that I've described do you deny believing?

You don't deny it because I don't misrepresent anything and you know it. All I do is show your doctrine for what it is. A self-contradictory jumble of Greek philosophy that is rationally incompatible with undeniably foundational concepts to the Christian faith such as love and justice. I couch your doctrine in terms that you don't like and so you blather on about how I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, saying it doesn't make it so, Nang.

Even when you quote Calvin, you do so with faulty presupposition, that skews your conclusions as to his teaching.

I've got a whole collection of in context, cited quotations of John Calvin and use them because he wasn't afraid of his own doctrine the way you are. I've got quotes from Augustine saying that he has no problem with the term 'fate' and quotations from all sorts of famous Calvinists who aren't at all afraid to say (in so many words) that the idea that God has predestined everything that happens and that God is just is an antinomy that cannot be grasped by us mere mortals and that it is for us to simply accept it and move on. That is what Calvinists believe and teach and no amount of your whining about it is going to change it. If you don't like it, maybe you should reconsider your doctrine.

There is no contradiction. God is Sovereign, and has created mankind with a secondary moral agency (will). Man is accountable to submit his human will to the sovereign will and word of God.

Just keep repeating that to yourself if it helps you sleep at night, Nang.

Maybe you could figure out a way to say it so that it rhymes and you could turn it into one of those chants and you could find a nice echoey spot in your church and sing it on Sunday mornings.

You deny God the attribute of omniscience, so you cannot grasp the exhaustive foreknowledge of God.

I deny Aristotle's version of omniscience, yes but the bible teaches that God knows all that is knowable that He wants to know.

Such is mere "fatalism" which omits human accountability from all cause and effect.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

But, as to those who call by the name of fate . . . . the whole connection and train of causes which makes everything become what it does become, there is no need that I should labor and strive with them in a merely verbal controversy, since they attribute the so-called order and connection of causes to the will and power of God most high, who is rightly and most truly believed to know all things before they come to pass and to leave nothing unordained. . . . But an order of causes in which the highest efficiency is attributed to the will of God, we neither deny nor do we designate it by the name of fate . . . there is for God a certain order of all causes. (Augustine, City of God, pp.151,154.)​

Perhaps it is you who do not know what Calvinism teaches!


By the way...
I just LOVE it that you and many other Calvinists are now ashamed of the term 'Calvinism'! I love it, love it, love it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell......

Be careful, lest your own words condemn yourself.

 

[ZacharyB]

At the foundation of it all, it IS about believing Jesus.

Of course, this is the foundation upon which all else rests!

And there are many aspects of doing God's will,
which are necessary to receive eternal life (Matt 7:21).

Also, a "knowing" personal relationship with Father God and Jesus is necessary;
see John 17:3 and John 10:27-28.

 

[Nang]

Then tell me which I got wrong, Nang!

Which doctrine that I've described do you deny believing?

You have not rightly described any of my beliefs . .

If you don't like it, maybe you should reconsider your doctrine.

:chuckle:

Sure . . I should renounce my beliefs just because you do not comprehend the Truth and misrepresent the Truth to which I testify?

Nonsense . . .

I deny Aristotle's version of omniscience

No, you deny the divine attribute of omniscience, altogether.

Perhaps it is you who do not know what Calvinism teaches!

Reformers (who you insist on labeling "Calvinists") believe and teach the attributes of God, which you Open Theists deny.

By the way...
I just LOVE it that you and many other Calvinists are now ashamed of the term 'Calvinism'! I love it, love it, love it!

Reformers highly respect the fruits of Calvin's teachings, but none of us claim to be the disciples of any man, but followers of Jesus Christ, only. I know of no Reformer who is ashamed of John Calvin, but I know of no Reformers who limit their testimony to his works alone.

I cringe and am embarrassed by any and all who claim to follow Bob Enyart and extoll his book "The Plot" over the works of the early church fathers and beyond the Holy Scriptures. . . like you unabashedly do.

So be quiet accusing others of being disciples of mere men. You are guilty of such, and have no grounds to accuse others of your own faults.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

2 Peter 2:1-22, TLB
“… there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly tell their lies about God,
turning against even their Master who bought them; but theirs will be a swift and terrible end. Many will follow their evil teaching that there is nothing wrong with sexual sin …
But God condemned them long ago and their destruction is on the way …
false teachers are fools—no better than animals. They do whatever they feel like …
and they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell. That is the
pay these teachers will have for their sin. For they live in evil pleasures day after day.
They are a disgrace and a stain among you, deceiving you by living in foul sin on the side
… They train themselves to be greedy; and are doomed and cursed. They have gone off the
road and become lost like Balaam … These men are as useless as dried-up springs of water
… They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness … they lure back into sin those who
have just escaped from such wicked living. ‘You aren’t saved by being good’, they say,
‘so you might as well be bad. Do what you like; be free.’ But these very teachers
who offer this ‘freedom’ from law are themselves slaves to sin and destruction.
For a man is a slave to whatever controls him (A). And when a person has escaped from
the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then
gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before (B).
It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then
afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old
saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited, and a pig is washed only to come back
and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is with those who turn again to their sin.”

This passage condemns both false teachers and their followers to eternal hell.

Believers who choose to be slaves of sin again are the foolish rebellious believers:
(A)that Paul warns about in Romans 6
(B)that become worse off than unbelievers

One direct point about the verses sighted here,

Sexual sin is Jesus speak for spiritual adultery and idolatry.

Turning from the commandments means falling from Grace by walking in Moses or judging others by Moses after being imputed Christ's righteousness.

This is a rehash of Jesus's parable about the house that was swept clean of a demon, but many more come back to find it empty and their last state is worse than the first.

The only way this could happen is again spoken about by Jesus, when He calls the Pharisees whited tombs, full of dead men's bones.

It is also like the man who was forgiven much, but pointed out another debt.

This one is actually a trap for a carnally geared believer that judges.

Oh snap. Peace, I'm out.



Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[ZacharyB]

Be careful, lest your own words condemn yourself.

The passage in the OP claims this ... not me!

"... they will be destroyed along with all the demons and powers of hell.
That is the pay these teachers will have for their sin."

"They are doomed to the eternal pits of darkness ..."

The following from the OP applies to both false teachers
and those who have been deceived by them and follow them ...

"And when a person has escaped from the wicked ways of the world by learning about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then gets tangled up with sin and becomes its slave again, he is worse off than he was before. It would be better if he had never known about Christ at all than to learn of him and then afterwards turn his back on the holy commandments that were given to him. There is an old saying that ‘A dog comes back to what he has vomited,
and a pig is washed only to come back and wallow in the mud again.’ That is the way it is
with those who turn again to their sin.”

When I post some comment, I am parroting what Scripture says.
Without God's word, everyone is a total spiritual idiot.
Some people escape this, by openly listening to
Scripture and the Holy Spirit (which always agree).