keypurr
Well-known member
There would need to be massive amounts of denial going on to arrive at a different conclusion...
So you agree then that God is a sacrifice for God?
Silly
There would need to be massive amounts of denial going on to arrive at a different conclusion...
No verse thwarts The Trinity.
Many of them contradict the Trinity, and none of them teach it.
For instance:
1 Cor 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
This verse both distinguishes the Son from God (not simply "Father", but "God") and establishes a clear hierarchy between the two after his earthly life (so none of that "he was only temporarily made less than God" unbiblical non-sense will work here)
Many of them contradict the Trinity, and none of them teach it.
For instance:
1 Cor 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
This verse both distinguishes the Son from God (not simply "Father", but "God") and establishes a clear hierarchy between the two after his earthly life (so none of that "he was only temporarily made less than God" unbiblical non-sense will work here)
So you agree then that God is a sacrifice for God?
Silly
I think that it is problematic that you separate scriptures from the church that canonized them, assuming they make any sense apart from the confessions of the church. They do not really. Apart from the confession of the church, her reading of the entirety of the Old testament is simply nonsense. Once you separate the scriptures from the church, the unity of scriptural interpretation is broken and all you are left with are shards that frankly make no sense. The scriptures does not teach the trinity as the church finally formulated it explicitly, but it requires it unless you want the Christian faith to collapse into pagan idolatry and superstition.
In the same letter Paul very clearly includes Christ in the shema: One God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Are the Lord and God two entities in the shema? Either Paul engages in wild idolatry or he considers Christ as equal with God in some sense. If Christ is some demigod, then Christianity is pagan nonsense. Creatures of lesser divinity is a pagan concept. The Greeks had a gradient of mediating divinities, the Jews did not. In Jewish though, there is a binary distinction, creator and creature, only the creator is God. The clear worship of Christ in the New testament is then nothing but idolatry and polytheism if the Son of God is not indeed God himself in some sense. There are doxologies for Christ that according to Jewish tradition can only rightly belong to God himself, not some created being.
How this is the case is not clear in the New testament. We even see the bending of grammar itself to try to accomodate it in some of the scriptures. Examples being Rev 11:15 when the verb "to rule" refers to two subjects (The Lord and the Christ) and yet it is singular form. The same is the case in Rev 22:3-4 where the two subjects "God" and "The Lamb" are referred to with a singular pronoun "His servants shall serve him". This is consistent with John of Patmos in general, that book makes grammatical adjustments to make points (a feature that has mistakenly been understood to be a case of poor Greek from the author, when in fact that book is generally written in excellent Greek and is quite the literary masterpiece).
The church then worked out how this was the case, just as she worked out what scriptures to canonize. Christ and the Spirit are indeed made subject to the Father. The Father is the arche of divinity. That is who the Father is, The Father eternally begets the Son and the Spirit, but does so eternally. The Son is the eternal self-identification and self-understanding of the Father and the Spirit is the eternal love and freedom between them. This dynamism is God, nothing more and nothing less.
The irony is that these developments gets written off as hellenizations of Christianity. In fact, it is Arianism that is the ultimate hellenization of Christianity. The concerns of Arius where Greek concept of the absolute one, who would not in any way be mediated completely, so we require lesser divinities as intermediates.
God is a sacrifice for humanity.
The church proper existed several hundreds before the Trinity doctrine was established, and cannot be reduced to Catholicism/Trinitarianism. So did the writings of Church Fathers, the scriptures themselves, and attempts at canonizing the scriptures. Constantine set the church down a path of reconciling all of its competing theologies and practices, but this was an error. It's good to discuss theology and to try to come to a consensus - not to force consensus down people's throats. And they did - to the point that those who refused to accept the Trinity were put to death.
And Christian Theology most certainly does contain some Greek Philosophy. Many of the Church Fathers whose writings exists today were converts who had originally studied Plato, Aristotle, etc. That was education back then.
Went right over your head, didn't it?
If Jesus is God as you say, then God was the sacrifice to God.
Silly trinity doctrine.
Excellent post csuguy.
He is.If Jesus is the direct Son of God
True, Jesus is the Son of God, not an angel.then he is not an angel
or separate deity- he is God.
Yes, there are many verses in the Bible that contradict the Trinity doctrine, and there are no verses in the Bible that teach the Trinity doctrine.Many of them contradict the Trinity, and none of them teach it.
The church proper existed several hundreds before the Trinity doctrine was established, and cannot be reduced to Catholicism/Trinitarianism. So did the writings of Church Fathers, the scriptures themselves, and attempts at canonizing the scriptures. Constantine set the church down a path of reconciling all of its competing theologies and practices, but this was an error. It's good to discuss theology and to try to come to a consensus - not to force consensus down people's throats. And they did - to the point that those who refused to accept the Trinity were put to death.
And Christian Theology most certainly does contain some Greek Philosophy. Many of the Church Fathers whose writings exists today were converts who had originally studied Plato, Aristotle, etc. That was education back then.
Yes, there are many verses in the Bible that contradict the Trinity doctrine, and there are no verses in the Bible that teach the Trinity doctrine.
Your claims that it is taught are not backed up by any scripture that actually teaches the Trinity doctrine.Yes it is taught. You just do not want to see it.
Your claims that it is taught are not backed up by any scripture that actually teaches the Trinity doctrine.
This is proven by the failure of Trinitarians to come up with any scriptures that actually teach the doctrine of the Trinity, as opposed to finding verses that can be used to support the doctrine of the Trinity.
Some do, some don't.Christians believe in the Trinity, non-Christians don't.
No, that is only taught by Trinitarians.You must believe in the nature of god and who He is.
I don't tell God that, but Trinitarians are always telling God that He must exist as three individuals conjoined in a single essence.Who are you to tell Him that as a single essence that He can't exist is three persons.
That Trinitarians are more arrogant than non-Trinitarians?What does that tell you?
The Trinity is a doctrine of the Christian Church. Definition from dictionary.com A doctrine of Christianity that there is one God and three divine persons in the one God: the Father, the Son ( Jesus ), and the Holy Spirit.It is not for you to judge whether a person is a Christian because he believes the clear testimony of scripture or if he believes the doctrine of the Trinity instead.
You are not to smart if you don't understand the nature of the one you worship as God.No, that is only taught by Trinitarians.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say you must believe God is a Trinity.
Not so. The word tell us what His nature is and that He is Triune.I don't tell God that, but Trinitarians are always telling God that He must exist as three individuals conjoined in a single essence.
No, that Trinitarians are more knowledgable than Non-trinitarians. We can think outside of the box.That Trinitarians are more arrogant than non-Trinitarians?
There are many questionable doctrines in the Christian Church.The Trinity is a doctrine of the Christian Church. Definition from dictionary.com A doctrine of Christianity that there is one God and three divine persons in the one God: the Father, the Son ( Jesus ), and the Holy Spirit.
The Bible states that God created the heaven and the earth.You are not to smart if you don't understand the nature of the one you worship as God.
This one verse is about as close as the Bible comes to telling us what God's nature is:Not so. The word tell us what His nature is and that He is Triune.
John 4:24 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. |
Being able to think outside the scriptures does not make your doctrine Biblical.No, that Trinitarians are more knowledgable than Non-trinitarians. We can think outside of the box.