Is there really a difference? Unitarians claim there is one God and trinitarians claim there is one God.
What difference does it make if the one God is one person or three persons? Neither is true according to NT scripture.
:deadhorse:
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Is there really a difference? Unitarians claim there is one God and trinitarians claim there is one God.
What difference does it make if the one God is one person or three persons? Neither is true according to NT scripture.
:deadhorse:
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
From what I read, it is and taught by Jesus.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
From what I read, it is and taught by Jesus.
Unitarians do not claim the deity of Jesus.
Wait until LA makes one of her death predictions about you. It's a real treat.
Right, unitarians claim one God in one person, trinitarians claim one God in three persons. The third so-called "person" being symbolized in scripture by water or a dove.
Have you ever read the entire Bible, cover to cover? I somehow doubt it,
even if you said yes. You see, I don't trust people like you.
journey
New member
The Holy Trinity is a Bible FACT. Almighty God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There are two places in the New Testament that mention all three in one portion of Scripture:
Matthew 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I realize that the 1 John Scripture is contested, but it is there anyway. The Matthew 28 portion of Scripture is not contested.
1 John 5:7 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
There are many portions of Scripture that mention one or two members of the Godhead in Scripture. Anyone with any common sense knows that all three are mentioned many times. Almost nobody contests God the Father, and very few contest God the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ, God the Son, is the most heavily contested, and this makes no sense at all.
As a sample, God the Father and God the Son are mentioned in the following portion of Scripture:
John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ is and was The Word.
Here's a sample of why it's really dumb to deny the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost, Comforter):
John 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This is Jesus Christ speaking above. Here's Jesus Christ speaking again below about the Comforter (Holy Spirit) testifying about Him (God the Son):
John 15:26-27 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27. And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
In short, there are many other like portions of Scripture that clearly speak of the members of the Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the three are ONE. It's not very smart to deny the Holy Trinity.
Matthew 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
I realize that the 1 John Scripture is contested, but it is there anyway. The Matthew 28 portion of Scripture is not contested.
1 John 5:7 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
There are many portions of Scripture that mention one or two members of the Godhead in Scripture. Anyone with any common sense knows that all three are mentioned many times. Almost nobody contests God the Father, and very few contest God the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ, God the Son, is the most heavily contested, and this makes no sense at all.
As a sample, God the Father and God the Son are mentioned in the following portion of Scripture:
John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ is and was The Word.
Here's a sample of why it's really dumb to deny the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost, Comforter):
John 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This is Jesus Christ speaking above. Here's Jesus Christ speaking again below about the Comforter (Holy Spirit) testifying about Him (God the Son):
John 15:26-27 KJV But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27. And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
In short, there are many other like portions of Scripture that clearly speak of the members of the Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the three are ONE. It's not very smart to deny the Holy Trinity.
Excellent post
You're a baloney salesman from way back. Didn't the people use to call you, Sir Knucklehead?
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You ought to be rejected if you deny the truth of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.
Hopefully, G.O. will be kept busy so he's unable to spread his false doctrine.
CherubRam
New member
In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical.
In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are GONE which contained the end of Matthew 28. Frederick Cornwallis Conybeare (1856 - 9 January 1924) Professor of Theology at the University of Oxford.
Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.
Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...
And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."
And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."
There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.
And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Trinity related
Acts 20:28 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read church of the Lord; other mss read church of the Lord and God
Acts 20:28 NIV foot note. Many manuscripts: “of the Lord” 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.(a) Be shepherds of the church of God,(b) which he bought with his own blood.
1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God
1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh
1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...
The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.
NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)
KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.
This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.
The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.
In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.
"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."
This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle.
In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are GONE which contained the end of Matthew 28. Frederick Cornwallis Conybeare (1856 - 9 January 1924) Professor of Theology at the University of Oxford.
Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.
Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...
And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."
And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."
There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, even after Pentecost.
And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Trinity related
Acts 20:28 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read church of the Lord; other mss read church of the Lord and God
Acts 20:28 NIV foot note. Many manuscripts: “of the Lord” 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.(a) Be shepherds of the church of God,(b) which he bought with his own blood.
1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God
1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh
1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...
The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.
NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)
KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.
This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.
The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.
In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.
"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."
This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle.
Nobody read's cherubram's posts
Daniel1769
New member
I gave up on reading his posts. I'm not interested in what Judaism thinks about the Bible.
Nope, it is non-trinitarian trash.
musterion
Well-known member
Paul explains, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27 NKJV).
Peter said, "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" (Acts 2:38 NKJV).
Luke said, "But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized" (Acts 8:12 NKJV).
In another place Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:48 NKJV)
Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5 NKJV).
In the NT only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16).
musterion
Well-known member
With all respect, elder brother, I got to ask you something here.
I don't know exactly what gospel G.O. believed but let's assume for argument's sake that it's the Gospel of the grace of God, the power of God unto salvation. That would mean G.O. very much IS saved, despite a head full of bad doctrinal wiring.
But just lately, on another thread, you said there's no way to know David Bowie is NOT with the Lord, even though (afaik) he never once made any indication of having believed, or even heard, the saving Gospel.
So which is it? Bad doctrine proves damnation, but a profession-less life of debauchery does not?
This is asked with love and desire for clarity in all things. If I've misunderstood you, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.